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The Convener Lab Committee

That concludes the public part of the meeting.10:26Meeting continued in private until 10:34.

The Convener Lab Committee

Under agenda item 3, I will make a statement about the decision of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee on a report from the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland about a complaint from Alison Morris against Ash Regan MSP.The comm...

The Convener (Martin Whitfield) Lab Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Good morning, and welcome to the 26th meeting in 2025 of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee. Agenda items 4 and 5 relate to consideration of a report and consideration of amendments to standing orders. Under agenda item 1, do we agree to consider items...

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

That is helpful. As there are no more questions, I thank the cabinet secretary and Julie Humphreys for their support of our evidence session this morning. That concludes our public business, and I move the meeting into private. 09:37 Meeting continued in private until 10:56.

Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

For me, whether it is a four-nation or bilateral approach, it is about how we get past me saying what I would like, the UK Government giving its position and there being no genuine discussion. We need to find a way through that. I am conscious of the fact that, on the day tha...

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Cabinet secretary, we are approaching the end of our evidence session, but I might just finish off where we started, which was on the on-going dialogue with the UK Government. For whatever reason, that appeared to dry up and the bilateral discussions did not happen. What is ...

Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

If there is anything in the written evidence to the contrary, I will be happy to look at it, but that is our understanding at present.

Elena Whitham SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

That is helpful.

Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

In my opening remarks, I referred to the strategy being more of a consolidation of what was previously announced rather than what is new, with the exception of the two-child limit. I do not know what language the UK ministers have used in their written evidence, but in the dis...

Elena Whitham SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Is there any understanding of what has been generated by the UK child poverty strategy and any consequentials that might flow from it? I think that the committee would like to know what that is and whether any consequentials would be funnelled into child poverty measures.

Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

The UK Government’s budget resulted in additional consequentials of £820 million over the UK spending review period—it is important to note that that is over the spending review period. The amount falls short of the investment that ministers called for. To summarise that wit...

Elena Whitham (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

As we have just heard, various measures have been set out in the UK Government’s strategy that might give rise to Barnett consequentials. Have you had the opportunity to gather and generate an estimate of how much those consequentials might be?

Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

We are very keen to learn lessons. That is why we wanted to work more closely with the UK Government on the development of the strategy, because we thought that there might even be things that we could learn from it—who knows? We did not have that opportunity, but we are keen ...

Carol Mochan Lab Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

You used an example that I pulled out, too, about the difference in the way in which England is approaching free childcare. Are you keen to make sure that lessons are learned about how we might do some of the things that are positive in the UK strategy?

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

There are clearly areas where both Governments have come to the same conclusions about the drivers of child poverty and the important policy interventions that can be undertaken. We might have used different terminologies, but it is important that we look at income from social...

Carol Mochan (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Good morning, cabinet secretary. The strategies of the UK Government and the Scottish Government are set out differently and have different priorities. That is understandable. I am interested in whether there is a wee bit of crossover. To what extent are policies that are alre...

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Rather than it being swallowed up, it is part of the overall importance that the Government will place on the issue. A number of parts of the budget will help to tackle child poverty. The budget is still being finalised, so we have not worked out the finer details of how that ...

Jeremy Balfour Ind Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

I go back to a previous question. Will there be an obvious line in next year’s budget showing us where the money that was going to be used for mitigation is now being used? Will it be something that you can point to and we can look at specifically, or will it be swallowed up—t...

Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

I could indeed talk for some time on that. It may be useful to the committee if I provided in writing the details, or at least some of the information, that we sent to the UK Government as we tried to move these various aspects along. It is also important to recognise that ...

Jeremy Balfour Ind Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

I expect that you could talk to us for half an hour on this subject, but the deputy convener is asking you to keep your answer fairly short. Could more effective action have been taken in relation to measures applying across the whole of the UK?

Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

We are still assessing that at the moment. It is clear that some aspects of the UK strategy will have an impact across the UK and other aspects are England only, for example. For example, some aspects concern parents on low incomes who are accessing childcare and need to ret...

Jeremy Balfour Ind Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

My apologies, cabinet secretary. It is too close to Christmas. What is your assessment of how changes to universal credit childcare, the minimum wage and employment rights, for example, might affect child poverty in Scotland?

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

I think we are returning to you for your main questions anyway, Mr Balfour.

Jeremy Balfour Ind Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Thank you, convener.

Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

You raise a very important point about the competing demands within the budget. The First Minister has made it very clear that the money would be used for child poverty, because the purpose of the mitigation of the two-child limit was to tackle child poverty. Clearly, it is no...

Jeremy Balfour Ind Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

You obviously get lots of demands on how you spend your budget. A couple of weeks ago I was at a food bank here in Edinburgh, and the people there said to me that the largest rise in the number of people coming to the food bank was among young men between the ages of 18 and 22...

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

It is recurring. We would have continued to mitigate against the two-child limit for as long as it was in place, so it is a recurring amount of money.

Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Ind) Ind Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

To show my ignorance in regard to financial things, is the leftover money that you now have a one-off annual thing, or do you see that continuing in the next three or four years? If I am in charge of a third sector organisation, for example, do I have to say what I can do in t...

Alexander Stewart Con Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

The First Minister has made it very clear that the money that will be saved from no longer mitigating the limit will be spent on child poverty measures, and we will look at that in the round as part of the budget process.

Alexander Stewart Con Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

You have identified that demand may increase for certain benefits in Scotland for which funding has already been set aside, so you have opportunities and options to develop that. That gives the Scottish Government flexibility to look at where that funding could have an impact ...

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

The First Minister has made it very clear that the funding will be used for further child poverty measures. He made that commitment some time ago and, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, that is now forming part of the budget process, which the Government is going through as...

Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Good morning. How will the Scottish Government spend the funds that it had set aside to mitigate the two-child limit and that are now freed up? It would be good to get an idea of which options you might be looking at for where the funding could be placed.

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

I apologise for cutting across you, Ms Baker. I do not like doing that.

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

On the impact modelling aspects, because we were not aware of what was in the strategy until it was published, Scottish Government officials have not been able to model and assess the impact of the policies in Scotland. The UK Government is doing modelling, which my officials ...

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Sorry to cut across you. You should of course answer that question, and I apologise to Claire Baker, but we are all aware of the questions that other members are due to ask, and quite a lot of overlap is happening.

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Where we are at the moment—

Claire Baker Lab Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

That would be helpful. I am trying to understand the impact of the Scottish Government’s policies. If the two-child cap were to remain in place, how many children would the strategy help? If we accept that the scrapping of the two-child cap reduces the number by 95,000 in Scot...

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

If you will forgive me, I am not aware of the part of the SPICe briefing that you are referring to, but we can certainly provide something in writing that will give our analysis of the impact of the two-child limit being scrapped. We had done such modelling anyway because we h...

Claire Baker Lab Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

You have said that the scrapping of the two-child cap will make a difference. I am trying to understand the figures from the Scottish strategy. I do not know whether you have the Scottish Parliament Information centre’s papers, which say that the “latest modelling, (includin...

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

We are determined to meet our target in 2030. I recognise that the interim target was not met. It has been more challenging for the Scottish Government to meet its targets when the headwind from the UK Government has been pushing children into poverty, rather than lifting them...

Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lab Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Good morning, cabinet secretary. It is unfortunate that the UK Government is not at the meeting because the letter, which I understand was received late last night, reflects a different picture of the engagement between the two Governments, but we do not have the opportunity t...

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

I will follow up on the two-child limit later, so I will not explore that further.

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

There was a feeling that it wished to move to a bilateral rather than a four-nations process, but the bilateral process did not happen.

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Was no explanation given as to why the conversations with the UK Government ended?

Shirley-Anne Somerville SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

The aspect that we warmly welcome is the abolition of the two-child limit. We said all along that it would be much better to do that at source rather than have the Scottish Government mitigating the effects of the limit, so that is to be warmly welcomed. However, I would us...

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

I will roll my next two questions into one because I know that my colleagues wish to come in. The Scottish Government advocated some policies to the UK Government as being able to make a real difference. Did you see any of those policies reflected in the strategy published by ...

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

As I said in my opening remarks, we had ministerial discussions. However, I would not call them discussions because we provided them with information and ideas about what we thought were the priorities, as did other nations, but no genuine or substantive discussion really took...

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

You have described the engagement that did happen as being “transactional” but it is good that engagement took place. Did that happen at both ministerial and official level?

Shirley-Anne Somerville Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

We were certainly keen to work with the new UK Government on the issue. I appreciated that the UK Government needed some private space within the task force so that it could look at the policies that it was developing. A four-nations sub-group was therefore convened, but it wo...

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Thank you, cabinet secretary. There was a lot in that opening statement and I will begin with the positives. As you indicated, the rate of child poverty in Scotland has been falling but you have characterised the UK strategy as broadly stabilising the current very high level o...

The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice (Shirley-Anne Somerville) SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Thank you very much, and good morning, convener. Eradicating child poverty is the Scottish Government’s top priority and a national mission for us all, and I am glad to see the UK Government’s renewed focus on that critical issue, albeit later than it had envisaged. Although ...

The Deputy Convener SNP Committee

United Kingdom Child Poverty Strategy

Our next item of business is an evidence session on the recently published UK child poverty strategy, “Our Children, Our Future—Tackling Child Poverty.” Before I begin, I wish to say a few words. I wrote to the Secretary of State for Scotland on 4 November to invite him to gi...

The Deputy Convener (Bob Doris) SNP Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the 34th meeting in 2025 of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. We have received apologies from Collette Stevenson and Marie McNair. I welcome David Torrance, who is attending as a substitute member. Our first item of busin...

The Convener SNP Committee

Legal Mechanism for any Independence Referendum

I have to draw the meeting to a close. Cabinet secretary, I thank you and your officials for your attendance at committee this morning. I ask people to clear the room really quickly, because we have another agenda item that I hope that we will get through before we have to le...

Angus Robertson SNP Committee

Legal Mechanism for any Independence Referendum

Mr Adam is again correct. Especially after yesterday’s opinion poll in Wales that confirmed the leading position of Plaid Cymru and the appalling levels of support for the Welsh Labour Party and the Welsh Conservative Party, and given the polls in Northern Ireland, I have abso...

George Adam SNP Committee

Legal Mechanism for any Independence Referendum

You have brought up an important point. There has been much talk about the elections next year. We could have a scenario with nationalist Governments in Belfast, in Scotland and in Wales, yet only one of them would have the opportunity to make a move forward. Surely that is th...

Angus Robertson SNP Committee

Legal Mechanism for any Independence Referendum

I agree with Mr Adam. He is absolutely right, in general. I would draw the committee’s attention to the fact—I would not be the first person to say this in giving evidence on this question to the committee—that, although it is not enshrined in a constitution, the right of self...

George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) SNP Committee

Legal Mechanism for any Independence Referendum

Good morning. I think that we are seeing the cold, hard fear and desperation of the unionists here today as they desperately try to grasp—Interruption. Well, they sound it. If you look at the inquiry, you see that one man’s flexible constitution is another man’s closed shop. ...

Patrick Harvie Green Committee

Legal Mechanism for any Independence Referendum

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Committee

Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee 18 December 2025

18 Dec 2025 · S6 · Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee

Item of business

Complaint

Whitfield, Martin Lab South Scotland Watch on SPTV

That concludes the public part of the meeting.

10:26

Meeting continued in private until 10:34.

In the same item of business

The Convener Lab

Under agenda item 3, I will make a statement about the decision of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee on a report from the Commissio...

The Convener Lab

That concludes the public part of the meeting.10:26Meeting continued in private until 10:34.