Committee
Social Security Committee 08 February 2018
08 Feb 2018 · S5 · Social Security Committee
Item of business
Social Security (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The Scottish social security system comprises three parts: the streams of assistance that are devolved in full, which include carers assistance and disability assistance; the power to top up any reserved benefit, which is provided for in section 45 of the bill; and the power to create new benefits within devolved competence. Those are the three parts of the package of devolved social security that was agreed in the Smith commission by all the parties represented in the Parliament, and which was legislated for in the Scotland Act 2016. The bill deals with the first and second parts of that package, but it says nothing about the third part of it. The amendments in my name in this group are designed to put that right. We all agree that the bill is a foundation piece of legislation and one of the most important that the Parliament will enact, because it puts on a Scottish statutory footing devolved Scottish social security. However, it does that with regard to only two thirds of the three-part package that was agreed unanimously around the Smith commission table. It is unfortunate that there is no provision in the bill to deal with the power to create new benefits. That is the purpose behind my amendments. I want to ensure that the bill puts on to the Scottish statute book all three elements of devolved social security: the benefits that are devolved in full, the power to top up reserved benefits and the power to create new benefits within devolved competence. Amendment 119 seeks to amend section 7, which defines what the Scottish social security system is. That matters because the principles in section 1 and the charter in section 2 will apply to the Scottish social security system. That definition should include all three parts of the package that I have described. Amendments 119 and 63, which are alternatives—we do not need both of them—seek to amend section 7 to ensure that any new benefits that are created under the power to create new benefits will fall within the scope of the statutory definition of the Scottish social security system and that, therefore, the principles in section 1 and the charter in section 2 will apply to the design and delivery of those benefits. The other amendments in the group seek to add to the bill the power to create new benefits, and they do so in a manner that is fully consistent with the way in which the Scottish ministers want to design and deliver the benefits that are fully devolved. That is to say that the regulation-making powers in those amendments are the same as the regulation-making powers that the Scottish Government sought to promote through the amendments that we have just discussed and come to a decision on. The regulations would have to be laid before the Scottish commission on social security for its advice and input; in other words, the process is entirely the same. The purpose behind my amendments is to ensure that the bill captures the whole of, and not just some of, devolved social security in Scotland, because at the moment it does not do that, which I think is a significant and—I would say—fundamental flaw in it. I move amendment 119. 10:15
In the same item of business
The Convener (Clare Adamson)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the fourth meeting of the Social Security Committee in 2018. I remind everyone to turn mobile phones and other devices to silent ...
The Convener
SNP
The first group is on consultation on the Scottish social security charter. Amendment 145, in the name of Jeremy Balfour, is grouped with amendments 103 to 1...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Amendment 145 is fairly straightforward. I am sure that this Government will do what the amendment requires without such provision being in the bill, but as ...
Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Amendments 103, 105 and 106—and amendment 108, to which we will come—are designed to ensure that equality is embedded in the bill and therefore in our social...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you. I call the minister to speak to amendment 12 and the other amendments in the group.
Jeane Freeman (Minister for Social Security)
SNP
Thank you, convener, and good morning. Let me start with amendment 145, in the name of Mr Balfour. Implicit in that amendment is a very important point: tha...
Mark Griffin
Lab
Before the minister completes her comments, can she expand on the reasoning behind amendment 12? The amendment states that “it is immaterial that anything d...
Jeane Freeman
SNP
Amendment 12 seeks to ensure that, in advance of the preparations for and conclusion of the work on the charter, the consultation work that has been undertak...
Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
I think that your interpretation is correct, minister.
Jeane Freeman
SNP
Thank you.
The Convener
SNP
No one else wishes to speak, so I ask Mr Balfour to press or withdraw amendment 145.
Jeremy Balfour
Con
I intend to press amendment 145. I hear what the minister says and I take her word very seriously, but I still think that it is important to have within the ...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 145 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McNeill, Pauli...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 4, Abstentions 0. Amendment 145 agreed to. Amendment 103 moved—Mark Griffin—and agreed to. Amendment 104 mov...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 104 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McNeill, Pauli...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 4, Abstentions 0. Amendment 104 agreed to. Amendment 105 moved—Mark Griffin—and agreed to. Amendment 12 mo...
The Convener
SNP
The next group of amendments is on the effect of the charter. Amendment 61, in the name of Adam Tomkins, is grouped with amendments 18, 18A and 50.
Adam Tomkins
Con
Last week, we had a debate about a similar provision on the effect of the principles. I do not want to reheat or repeat that debate but, during the debate, M...
Jeane Freeman
SNP
I am pleased to support amendment 61, in the name of Adam Tomkins. I think that it would be helpful to draw the committee’s attention to our consultation on ...
The Convener
SNP
I invite Mr Tomkins to wind up, and to press or withdraw amendment 61.
Adam Tomkins
Con
I have nothing further to say. I press amendment 61. Amendment 61 agreed to.
The Convener
SNP
The next group of amendments concerns the right to social security. Amendment 116, in the name of Mark Griffin, is grouped with amendment 117.
Mark Griffin
Lab
I feel that amendments 116 and 117 would advance the Scottish Government’s objectives of ensuring that Scotland’s social security system is world leading and...
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
SNP
The overarching issue that amendments 116 and 117 concern is an extremely important one to consider, given what we said about it in our discussions during st...
Adam Tomkins
Con
Ben Macpherson has asked a series of important questions about what would be significant amendments. The most important point that I pick out of that suite o...
George Adam (Paisley) (SNP)
SNP
I agree with Mr Tomkins and Ben Macpherson. The minister has said from the start that social security as a human right is a founding principle of what we are...
The Convener
SNP
I would not like to comment, Mr Adam.
Jeane Freeman
SNP
The Government is serious about human rights and about following through on our treaty obligations. As members have said, the Scottish ministerial code state...