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Showing 16 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
24 Jan 2018
Railway Policing
The British Transport Police polices railways, stations and trains throughout the United Kingdom. It is accountable to the BTP chief constable, the British Transport Police Authority and, ultimately, the United Kingdom Parliament. The BTP is funded by Network Rail, the train o...
Liam Kerr Con Chamber
09 May 2017
Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
There is no time. It was noted that an incident at Carluke that was handled by Police Scotland took 107 minutes, with resultant delays that incurred costs of approximately £160,000. Furthermore, the Samaritans has highlighted the specialist skills the BTP has in dealing with ...
Liam Kerr Con Chamber
09 Mar 2017
General Question Time · British Transport Police (Integration)
It is the opinion of, among others, the rail operators, the rail unions, the travelling public, the British Transport Police Federation, the BTP itself and now even Police Scotland that the merger is unnecessary and threatens passenger safety. Deputy Chief Constable Hanstock h...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
09 May 2017
Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The biggest concern with the Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill—specifically the proposed integration of the British Transport Police’s Scottish division into Police Scotland—is simply this: it does not make sense. The Smith commission recommended bringing the staff and the pow...
Liam Kerr Con Chamber
09 May 2017
Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Absolutely not. ScotRail cited the Netherlands, where the railway police have been incorporated into a single national police corps, and noted that there have been great difficulties with that approach. It expressed concerns and has warned that there would be a “loss of speci...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
27 Jun 2017
Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill
During the stage 1 debate, Douglas Ross, who was then an MSP for the Highlands and Islands, said of the proposals: “To forge ahead regardless, ignoring the advice of so many experts and professionals, would be the wrong thing to do.”—Official Report, 9 May 2017; c 44. As we ...
Liam Kerr Con Chamber
27 Jun 2017
Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill
There is no time—I am sorry. The people have had no time to grasp fully and unreservedly the consequences and the challenges of the legislation. If only we could be confident that the Scottish Government was working off a template that worked. If only there were a seamless ...
Liam Kerr Con Committee
23 Jan 2018
Policing
But if I am a BTP officer transferring across, I will know that on the date that I become part of Police Scotland, my pension and my terms and conditions may not be resolved. Is that really the assurance that we can give to BTP officers?
Liam Kerr Con Committee
01 May 2018
British Transport Police
Forgive me, Tom. I did not quite understand that. Just to be absolutely clear, are you saying that if not enough people have come across from the BTP at the date of transfer, Police Scotland will draw people in from other departments, badge them up, train them and assign them ...
Liam Kerr Con Committee
01 May 2018
British Transport Police
I want to develop that point. Earlier, Mr Goodband said that BTP officers currently have employee status whereas Police Scotland officers are Crown officers and do not have employee status, as such, in law. I think that I am right in saying that there will not be a transfer un...
Liam Kerr Con Chamber
18 Jan 2017
Caterpillar Plant Occupation (30th Anniversary)
Yes, Presiding Officer. As we remember the actions of the past, let us not be blind to the present. The SNP should listen to the unions, the Scottish Conservatives, the BTP, Scottish Labour and—above all—the public, and stop meddling with the British Transport Police. May I ...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
15 Nov 2017
Portfolio Question Time · British Transport Police Integration Cost
No details have been provided about which staff body will represent the employment interests of BTP officers north of the border after the force is abolished here. Will the cabinet secretary end that uncertainty now?
Liam Kerr Con Committee
23 Jan 2018
Policing
Does it concern you that transferring BTP officers will see the situation and hear that response, and say, “I want no part of this,” and retire?
Liam Kerr Con Chamber
24 Jan 2018
Railway Policing
Just to get back on point, is Rona Mackay aware of whether the Government has made any contingency plans should two thirds of Scottish BTP officers decide not to transfer to Police Scotland?
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
21 Feb 2018
Urgent Question · British Transport Police in Scotland and Police Scotland (Merger)
The Scottish National Party did not listen to the Scottish Conservatives when we said that this was unsafe, unnecessary and unwanted by virtually everyone connected with Scotland’s railways. Now it has been forced into an embarrassing, humiliating U-turn, having told the chamb...
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con Chamber
05 Sep 2018
Programme for Government 2018-19
I have not yet had the chance to formally welcome the new Cabinet Secretary for Justice to his role and I am pleased to do so in general and in the context of the programme for government. Some might consider his inheritance to be something of a poisoned chalice, as violent cr...
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 24 January 2018

24 Jan 2018 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Railway Policing
Kerr, Liam Con North East Scotland Watch on SPTV

The British Transport Police polices railways, stations and trains throughout the United Kingdom. It is accountable to the BTP chief constable, the British Transport Police Authority and, ultimately, the United Kingdom Parliament. The BTP is funded by Network Rail, the train operating companies and the freight operating companies, which enter into a contract with the BTPA. The Smith commission recommended devolving the functions of the BTP, and the UK Parliament has since passed the Scotland Act 2016, which transfers legislative competence in relation to the policing of railways in Scotland to the Scottish Parliament. On 27 June 2017, the Scottish National Party-Green alliance voted through the Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill, to transfer responsibility for railway policing in Scotland from the BTP to Police Scotland. That means that the Scottish division of the BTP will be carved out from the UK BTP and will become part of Police Scotland. The date for the merger is April 2019.

We respect all those decisions. However, we believe that it would be prudent to pause the integration, and I will set out why.

It is imperative that the transfer happens smoothly and that nothing compromises the effectiveness and ability of the railway police. However, Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary in Scotland has stated:

“the scope and scale of the challenges and complexity posed by the transfer should not be underestimated.”

That is not surprising. Deputy Chief Constable Livingstone was clear at the Justice Committee yesterday when he said that

“it is not a merger of like with like”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 23 January 2018; c 36.]

and that the BTP is different with regard to pensions, entitlements and employee status. Those concerns remain.

HMICS has also described the lack of a plan to integrate control rooms as a “key risk” to the merger, saying that

“much work will need to be done around the interface of each organisation’s contact, command and control systems and processes, as well as the interface between Police Scotland and Network Rail’s control systems.”

That is true.

Yesterday, DCC Livingstone told the Justice Committee that information and communication technology provision, terms and conditions, pensions and pre-existing third party contracts will not be resolved by 1 April 2019, and he could not provide detail on when the work on those will be complete. I presume that that means that, post April 2019, there will be on-going dependency on the BTPA in relation to those areas, with only a partial integration.

There are also significant personnel concerns. In a response to a letter from the convener of the Justice Committee, the British Transport Police Federation revealed that it had not

“had sight of any written proposals on pensions, pay or Terms and Conditions”

and questioned how the Scottish Police Federation could represent BTP officers, who are not Crown servants. In that regard, it is notable that the SPF and the BTPF sent letters to the Justice Committee this month highlighting what they say is a lack of consultation with them by the Scottish Government.

Uncertainty abounds on pensions. Serving BTP officers are part of a healthy BTP fund, which sits in a further fund that is valued at around £24 billion. It is understood by officers that the Scottish Government plans to set up a segregated closed fund for transferring BTP officers, perhaps with retired colleagues. One estimate suggests that that has a £400,000 set-up cost, plus an ever-increasing administration cost to the taxpayer, to say nothing of the loss of security for those transferees.

Furthermore, given that the minister conceded to me in November that the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations do not apply, there remains ambiguity over which terms and conditions will apply, to the extent that the BTPF suggests that the complexities have been underestimated. The Labour amendment, which we shall support, seeks to address that point, so I will leave that for Labour members to develop.

What of the BTP personnel who are based outside Scotland but who support Scottish operations? It remains unclear, in the absence of TUPE, what impact there will be on them post merger.

It is perhaps not surprising, therefore, that an internal staff survey revealed that only around a third of BTP officers say that they will definitely transfer. The remainder are considering leaving, retiring or moving to other BTP divisions. Yesterday, DCC Livingstone agreed that some BTP officers might decide to retire before the merger, to ensure that their terms and conditions are not affected.

If BTP officers leave, presumably their positions must be backfilled from within Police Scotland. Can Police Scotland really spare 50 officers, say, and train them in time? What if legacy BTP officers are taken from their core rail policing duties to bolster the resilience of Police Scotland? How comfortable will the funding companies—or the public—be with that?

Talking of the taxpayer, it is notable that the HMICS report says:

“The full costs associated with the transfer of railway policing in Scotland have not yet been assessed and there is uncertainty among stakeholders as to who will pay these costs.”

On that point, it would appear that the police service agreements between the train operating companies, the freight operating companies and Network Rail that are currently in place will need to be addressed and concluded on by 18 March this year, as the BTPA is required to provide 12 months’ notice of termination.

During the negotiations, which will need to take place with Police Scotland, of course, the rail companies will need to know what is happening from April 2019. Who is going to be policing our railways, and how? As we discovered yesterday, that is currently not clear.

Then there is the other side. As we discussed earlier, Police Scotland is in the midst of a challenging period. The chief constable is on special leave, four other senior officers have been suspended in connection with a range of allegations and the justice secretary is in the chamber fairly constantly defending himself. The Scottish Police Authority is under its third leader in four years and is involved in a recruitment process for five new board members.

On that point, having railway experience on the SPA board was a key HMICS recommendation, which is not surprising given that the BTPA—the SPA’s counterpart—currently has 12 board members whose sole focus is railway policing. Yet the chair of the SPA confirmed yesterday that it is not looking to recruit specialist railway experience to the board.

The BTPF has made it clear that it does not feel that the current climate of policing in Scotland lends itself to integrating the BTP. We agree.

That is the context within which we bring this debate. The merger might be a good idea. It might deliver the kind of seamless police service and cost savings that ministers clearly believe that it will. However, the merger has to be done right. It is clear that the integration date is unachievable. The BTPF describes the merger date of April 2019 as a “cliff-edge scenario”.

The merger process has extremely difficult issues to address, such as pensions, terms and conditions, the estate, career progression, cross-border policing difficulties, BTP staff and budgets. It must be more sensible to take a step back, pause and set a realistic timeframe. Let us understand the significant value added by the BTP, review how that can best continue to be delivered and build a detailed, full and robust plan that involves a detailed cost analysis that asks whether the aims of integration can be secured through a different route with fewer risks. Many voices are offering those suggestions, and I suggest that we listen to them.

It is time to pause. It is time to listen.

I move,

That the Parliament respects the devolution of railway policing as agreed in the Scotland Act 2016, but notes concern regarding the leadership challenges facing Police Scotland; believes that railway policing is of critical importance to public safety, particularly in responses to terrorism, and further believes therefore that it would be prudent to pause the integration of the British Transport Police into Police Scotland.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-10039, in the name of Liam Kerr, on railway policing. Are you ready, Mr Kerr?
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
Yes.
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I am impressed. I call Liam Kerr to speak to and move the motion. 15:50
Liam Kerr (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
The British Transport Police polices railways, stations and trains throughout the United Kingdom. It is accountable to the BTP chief constable, the British T...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Thank you very much, Mr Kerr. I call Humza Yousaf to speak to and move amendment S5M-10039.2. Minister, you have six minutes, please. 15:58
The Minister for Transport and the Islands (Humza Yousaf) SNP
I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate. First let me reflect on the fact that this Parliament passed the Railway Policing (Scotland) Act 201...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
Humza Yousaf SNP
I will finish this quote, then give way. Last March, the Prime Minister said: “Police Scotland is the second biggest force in the UK, with huge capabilities...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Given the minister’s remarks, what is his reaction to Nigel Goodband, chair of the British Transport Police Federation, who raised exactly those points as pa...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I simply do not agree. Police Scotland is directly connected to the UK-wide anti-terrorism network. We heard media reports of armed Police Scotland officers ...
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I thank the minister for that update on terms and conditions. If he is so confident that the matter has been addressed, why did DCC Livingstone say to the Ju...
Humza Yousaf SNP
I read again and looked at the detail of what DCC Livingstone said. As Liam Kerr said in his opening remarks, he was talking primarily about information and ...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the member take an intervention?
Humza Yousaf SNP
I need to make progress—I know that my time is short. The Scottish Government is therefore committed to continuing to engage with BTP officers and staff rep...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
You must conclude now. I know that you took interventions, but I have given you extra time.
Humza Yousaf SNP
I move amendment S5M-10039.2, to leave out from “, but notes concern” to end and insert: “; notes the passage of the Railway Policing (Scotland) Act 2017; f...
Colin Smyth (South Scotland) (Lab) Lab
When the Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill came before Parliament, Labour shared the universal concerns about it that were raised by stakeholders including th...
Humza Yousaf SNP
Colin Smyth talks about uncertainty, and I understand his opposition, but can he say, after all these years, what Labour’s position would have been on what t...
Colin Smyth Lab
One of the cases that were put forward was for a separate Scottish transport police. However, the point is that three proposals were put forward, and we woul...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
Before we move to the open debate, I apologise to the minister, because he did not overrun his time. I did not have my glasses on, but they are on now. It is...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
The security of the travelling public relies on effective policing of our railways. Following the recommendation of the Smith commission, the Scotland Act 20...
Humza Yousaf SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Margaret Mitchell Con
I am in my last minute. The BTP Scotland division has an exemplary record in ensuring that our railways are secure. Given all that I have said, and that we ...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) SNP
In my view, this debate should not be happening. The premise of the Conservative motion on the Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill, which was passed by Parliame...
Liam Kerr Con
Just to get back on point, is Rona Mackay aware of whether the Government has made any contingency plans should two thirds of Scottish BTP officers decide no...
Rona Mackay SNP
I will come on to that later. The motion highlights that railway policing “is of critical importance to public safety, particularly in responses to terrori...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
My position and the position of Scottish Labour on the Railway Policing (Scotland) Act 2017 and the Scottish Government’s intention regarding the British Tra...
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Green
The Railway Policing (Scotland) Bill was passed by the Parliament and it has to be respected. Throughout the passage of the bill various concerns were raised...
Liam Kerr Con
Will the member take an intervention?
John Finnie Green
No, I will not. It is also important not to make an issue of cross-border arrangements, which were dealt with historically, reinforced in the Police and Fir...