Committee
Health, Social Care and Sport Committee 16 January 2024
16 Jan 2024 · S6 · Health, Social Care and Sport Committee
Item of business
Subordinate Legislation
Anaesthesia Associates and Physician Associates Order 2024 [Draft]
There will be a division. For Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Against Gulhane, Dr. Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Region) (Con)
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
Our third item of business is consideration of an affirmative statutory instrument. The purpose of the instrument is to allow the statutory regulation of ana...
Michael Matheson
SNP
This statutory instrument is first and foremost about patient safety. Safe, effective and person-centred practice is the driving force behind how we deliver ...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you for that opening statement. Before I begin, I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests, which shows that I hold a bank staf...
Michael Matheson
SNP
Yes, it is part of a long-standing piece of work that we have been taking forward with the UK Government. Back in 2019, the then Cabinet Secretary for Health...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you for that clarification. I welcome your statement on some of the commentary that there has been on healthcare professionals working as AAs and PAs....
Michael Matheson
SNP
I have heard some of the commentary on that, and I do not subscribe to it. We have a range of health regulators that regulate a range of professional groups....
The Convener
SNP
Has the cabinet secretary considered making the Health and Care Professions Council—HCPC—a regulator for PAs and AAs? If consideration was given to that, why...
Michael Matheson
SNP
There was a consultation exercise, part of which was about which regulatory body would be most appropriate for the regulation of PAs and AAs. A significant m...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, cabinet secretary. That was very helpful.
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
I declare an interest, as my entry in the register of members’ interests shows, I am a practising NHS GP. I agree with the expansion of the multidisciplinar...
Michael Matheson
SNP
I will ask Nigel Robinson to talk about the history going back to 2003, and why there was a change in the name at that point.
Nigel Robinson (Scottish Government)
It is important to note that the role of physician associate arrived from America around 20 years ago. Physician associates have been established here for qu...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
They are not regulated currently, so if you are creating legislation, you can put in any name you want.
Nigel Robinson
We could, but not with this legislation: it would have to fall in both this Parliament and in the UK Parliament and the whole process would have to start aga...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
The BMA is telling us that patients and their families are unaware, many times, whether or not they have been assessed by a doctor. Following on from the con...
Michael Matheson
SNP
I have heard that argument a few times, but I do not quite follow it. There are other professional regulatory bodies that cover supplementary groups; for exa...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
Can we talk about money? The cost of regulating a PA will be half the cost of regulating a doctor, and the Government is putting in money to subsidise the re...
Michael Matheson
SNP
Eventually, it will be a self-funding model, but the proposed arrangement will operate for the initial couple of years, in order to get the regulatory proces...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
What about my point about the cost of regulating a PA being half that of regulating a doctor?
Michael Matheson
SNP
I do not know what the exact costs associated with that are, but the UK Government has decided to fund the GMC to support the introduction of the regulation ...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
In order to regulate, it is necessary to have very tight definitions of what it is that the profession is doing. There are very tight definitions around nurs...
Michael Matheson
SNP
At present, PAs are unregulated. In Scotland, we have a very small cohort of around 150 of them operating in the NHS. Back in 2016, we issued direction aroun...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
The GMC has said that that is not its role. In the work that you have put out, you have not defined what supervision means.
Michael Matheson
SNP
How we use PAs and AAs in NHS Scotland will be determined by us. That will be the approach that we will take through the group that we have set up. As I ment...
Sandesh Gulhane
Con
Are you doing work on that? Are you planning to set up a programme?
Michael Matheson
SNP
I mentioned that in my opening comments. We have set up the medical associate professions implementation programme, which has a board that includes key partn...
Carol Mochan
Lab
I totally agree that regulation is really important. I should declare that I was on the Health and Care Professions Council, although that was about 15 years...
Michael Matheson
SNP
I go back to my earlier answer. There was a debate around that, and it was part of the consultation in which we asked for feedback on which body would be the...
Carol Mochan
Lab
It is not that I disagree with that—I was just interested in knowing whether, given that that diverse group is already a whole regulatory body, it made sense...
Emma Harper
SNP
I am going to declare an interest, too, as a registered nurse. I worked with physician assistants and what are now physician associates when I worked in a le...