Committee
Justice Committee 06 November 2018
06 Nov 2018 · S5 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012 (Post-legislative Scrutiny)
I will finish by putting on my other hat, that of a member of the Equalities and Human Rights Committee. It is great to have this discussion as part of the scrutiny, so credit to the clerks. I hope that Diego Quiroz and other folk from the Scottish Human Rights Commission will be regular attendees at future scrutiny.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
Agenda item 2 is an evidence session in our post-legislative scrutiny of the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012. I refer members to paper 1, which is...
Simon Routh-Jones (Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service)
Good morning. I felt that it would be important and helpful for members of the committee if I were to mention that the fire service inspectorate is totally i...
Douglas Scott (Scottish Borders Council)
Thank you for inviting us. The Scottish Borders Council was a pathfinder local authority to pilot the local scrutiny arrangements that came into force with t...
The Convener
Con
Thank you very much. The committee has heard varying opinions on whether reform has achieved benefits in terms of service delivery. What do the witnesses se...
Simon Routh-Jones
I am more than happy to start. In our judgment, the reform process is certainly providing effective impact with regard to what it was there for. It has certa...
Douglas Scott
We have had very close scrutiny of our performance from the work of the board, on a quarterly basis. The meetings have been attended by the local and divisio...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Lab
One of the key arguments that was made for reform concerned the provision of consistency and access to specialist services across Scotland. Do you have any g...
Simon Routh-Jones
With regard to national resources, there have been significant examples around flooding and major fires that have happened in Glasgow. Reform has meant that ...
Daniel Johnson
Lab
One of the phrases that is used by the fire service itself is about the ability to have the right resource in the right place at the right time. The Fire Bri...
Simon Routh-Jones
The days of resources being static are gone. Risk is changing all the time and a service that has the flexibility to be able to move resources serves the pub...
Daniel Johnson
Lab
On an associated point, the FBU thinks that it would be useful if the statutory response times, which we no longer have, were restored, both to provide a ben...
Simon Routh-Jones
No. I do not agree at all. We can be far more flexible and identify risks. The service should be based on risk rather than on a prescriptive approach. Moving...
Daniel Johnson
Lab
I directed my questions to Mr Routh-Jones, but I would be interested to hear any insights from Scottish Borders Council.
Graham Jones (Scottish Borders Council)
In the Scottish Borders, we have developed our scrutiny arrangements and we have a monthly oversight group, which has cross-party membership. The police atte...
Rona Mackay (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
SNP
One of the main drivers of reform was the financial imperative. To a large extent, Mr Scott, you have already answered my first question. Have front-line ser...
Douglas Scott
We have to look at the changed situation, and the focus from the Borders point of view is both local and specialist. We are very well aware that, nationally,...
Graham Jones
One of the advantages of the national services is the volume of information that is available so that comparisons can be made of different local authority ar...
Rona Mackay
SNP
That brings me on to my next question. What effect has national policy had on local services or local communities? I am thinking of some of the big decisions...
Graham Jones
The safer communities team is integrated: we have police officers, fire service officers, our alcohol and drug partnership and our community safety team, whi...
Rona Mackay
SNP
You are saying that you adapt national policy to suit your local needs.
Graham Jones
Basically, yes.
Rona Mackay
SNP
How many policy analysts do you have in the council?
Graham Jones
We have two. We have an information and statistics officer who deals principally with antisocial behaviour and who is a police employee. The other analyst is...
Rona Mackay
SNP
Mr Routh-Jones, can you relate my question about national policy to the Fire and Rescue Service?
Simon Routh-Jones
Yes. My answer will be in two parts. On resources, the fact that there have been no station closures has been well-publicised. We started off with 356 and ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
I am interested in Mr Jones’s description of the type of engagement that there has been, both on the police side and on the fire side. As you were speaking, ...
Graham Jones
Taser training was raised at one of our scrutiny meetings a few months ago and the rationale was put across. I do not think that anybody had a particularly s...
Liam McArthur
LD
I think that the needs case at a national level, in terms of increased threat levels and all of the rest of it, was fairly well understood. Was there ever a ...
Graham Jones
It is a while since the issue was raised, so I cannot remember the exact basis of the discussion, but I think the view was that there was a credible need. I ...
Liam McArthur
LD
That was helpful. I appreciate that I have slightly ambushed you. If there are further thoughts or observations that you want to share with the committee, I ...