Committee
Justice Committee 10 November 2020
10 Nov 2020 · S5 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I have a general question. Do any of the witnesses have concerns about how the hate crime characteristics are defined in the bill? As a wee bit of background, we have explored issues about Gypsy Travellers, asylum seekers and refugees, and it is suggested that they be included in the bill. We have also talked about there being no provisions on sectarianism. I will probably ask the next panel of witnesses more about that, but I would like to hear your general thoughts on the issue. Annabelle Ewing will come in on the issue of sex and misogyny, so I would be grateful if the witnesses could take that into account when responding to my question. Being cognisant of the convener’s earlier remarks about time and there being no need for every witness to answer every question, I put my question to Fraser Sutherland and Lisa Clark, although I am happy to take John McLellan and David Greig, if they want to come in.
In the same item of business
The Convener
Con
The next item of business is the continuation of stage 1 consideration of the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill. We have two panels of multiple wit...
Lisa Clark (Scottish PEN)
Our written submission focused a lot on our concerns about freedom of expression, particularly in relation to part 2 of the bill, which is on stirring-up off...
The Convener
Con
Will you outline what further proposals you would like to see made in addition to what the cabinet secretary has already proposed?
Lisa Clark
Sure. We argue that it would be helpful to strengthen the reasonableness defence by including a new section in the bill that would take account of the litera...
The Convener
Con
That is very helpful. I ask the same question to John McLellan.
John McLellan (Scottish Newspaper Society)
Inaudible.
The Convener
Con
I cannot hear John—he appears to have been unmuted, but there is no sound. While broadcasting fixes that issue, I will put the same question to Fraser Suther...
Fraser Sutherland (Humanist Society Scotland)
I echo some of the points that were made by Lisa Clark. The change to remove the words “likely to” and so stick with intention are very welcome. The initial ...
The Convener
Con
That is very helpful indeed. I ask David Greig the same question.
David Greig (Royal Lyceum Theatre)
I admit that I came late to the process, so I do not really know about earlier iterations of the bill and can speak only about the version that I have looked...
The Convener
Con
If John McLellan is back with us, I invite him to respond to those issues.
John McLellan
Can you hear me now?
The Convener
Con
Yes, we can.
John McLellan
Hurray! The update from the cabinet secretary was broadly welcome, as it indicated a sense of direction, but our main concerns remain. Lisa Clark said someth...
Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
SNP
I have a question specifically for John McLellan and Lisa Clark. It concerns a recent suggestion that religiously inflammatory material would be subject to d...
John McLellan
We are reflecting on all aspects of the proposed legislation, but just because something has not happened in another jurisdiction, that does not mean that it...
Lisa Clark
I echo John McLellan’s point. It is definitely a conversation worth having. We know that there is a concern for writers; they self-censor the subjects that t...
Annabelle Ewing
SNP
I thank both witnesses for their responses. I appreciate that time is tight, but I just want to say that I am not suggesting that we do not have the conversa...
John McLellan
No, I have not, but what is of concern to me is cases where we have seen the seizure of such things as computers and phone records in an investigative proces...
Annabelle Ewing
SNP
I suggest that, on the balance of probability, one has to look at those issues as, in life, one does not have a crystal ball. However, the answers have been ...
The Convener
Con
One material difference between the provisions in England and Wales and those in the bill is the extent of the free speech protections. As we have already he...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)
LD
That was precisely the segue that I was going to refer to. Fraser Sutherland has already mentioned some of his concerns about the need for the bill to exten...
John McLellan
Sorry, could you repeat the question?
Liam McArthur
LD
My question relates to the freedom of expression protections. The cabinet secretary has indicated a willingness to look at both broadening the way in which t...
John McLellan
The fundamental problem that we have is that the protections are defences, not exemptions—they do not prevent investigations. From experience, we know that i...
Lisa Clark
Our submission did not consider the investigation stage to the extent that John McLellan’s did. We would not want to see an undue burden being placed on jour...
Liam McArthur
LD
I see that Fraser Sutherland wants to come in. I hope that he will add to what he said earlier about the defences, including the reasonableness defence.
Fraser Sutherland
Annabelle Ewing mentioned other jurisdictions. Perhaps a lot can be learned from the work of the United Nations Human Rights Committee and the Rabat plan of ...
Liam McArthur
LD
That is very helpful.
David Greig
I want to speak about nuisance or malicious attempts to use this, with people probably being found to be not guilty ultimately, but the process of investigat...