Committee
Equal Opportunities Committee 19 September 2013
19 Sep 2013 · S4 · Equal Opportunities Committee
Item of business
Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I welcome everyone to the 23rd meeting in 2013 of the Equal Opportunities Committee. I ask that electronic devices be set to flight mode or switched off.We will start by introducing ourselves. To my left are our clerks, our research team and the official reporters and around the room we are supported by broadcasting services and the security office. I also welcome observers in the public gallery.I am the committee convener. I invite members and witnesses to introduce themselves in turn.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Margaret McCulloch)
Lab
I welcome everyone to the 23rd meeting in 2013 of the Equal Opportunities Committee. I ask that electronic devices be set to flight mode or switched off.We w...
Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
SNP
I am the deputy convener of the committee and MSP for Edinburgh Central.
Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
I am an MSP for North East Scotland.
John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Ind
I am a Highlands and Islands MSP.
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
SNP
I am the MSP for Glasgow Shettleston.
Siobhan McMahon (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I am an MSP for Central Scotland.
Christian Allard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I am an MSP for North East Scotland.
Dr Kelly Kollman (University of Glasgow)
I am from the University of Glasgow.
Aidan O’Neill QC
I am a member of Matrix Chambers in London and also practise in Scotland. I suppose that I practise in European Union and human rights law, and I have a part...
Lynn Welsh (Equality and Human Rights Commission)
I am head of legal at the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
Karon Monaghan QC
I am a barrister at Matrix Chambers specialising in equality and human rights law.
The Convener
Lab
Thank you. Our only agenda item is evidence taking on the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill at stage 1, and perhaps I should start by telling ou...
Marco Biagi
SNP
My first question concerns the opt-in protections in the bill and whether any attempt on human rights grounds to require a faith group that had not opted int...
Lynn Welsh
In short, the commission believes that the opt-in provision will work and will not be open to human rights challenge. Obviously, anyone can challenge it but,...
Aidan O’Neill
I never like to say that a human rights challenge will not be successful. Constitutionally, one difference between England and Scotland relates to the Church...
Marco Biagi
SNP
Would article 9 of the European convention on human rights offer strong protection to a church against such a challenge?
Aidan O’Neill
Yes. Article 9, which stipulates“the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion”,is a rather overlooked ECHR provision. In addition to those absolu...
Marco Biagi
SNP
Dr Kollman, are you aware of challenges in other countries that have similar protections for churches to opt out that have sought to require religious author...
Dr Kollman
As I said when I responded to the invitation to attend the committee, I am not a legal scholar, so I do not know the ins and outs of any kind of legal challe...
Marco Biagi
SNP
I want to move on slightly, so if anybody else wants to comment on the issue, this would be a good time.
John Mason
SNP
I have a question for Dr Kollman on that point. It has been suggested that churches in Denmark do not have the freedom to opt out. Is that the case?
Dr Kollman
I have heard that on several occasions. Again, I qualify my comments by saying that Denmark is not one of the cases that I have studied in depth, but my unde...
Aidan O’Neill
As I understand it, in Scandinavian countries, the established church, which is the Lutheran church, has been seen as a department of state, in a similar way...
Christian Allard
SNP
That has answered part of the question that I was going to ask. I am interested in the relationship between church and state. Is there the same kind of relat...
Aidan O’Neill
I think that the Scandinavian countries are the only ones that have that Erastian settlement, as it is known, whereby, at the time of the reformation, the ki...
Dr Kollman
On a point of reference, Sweden is the one Scandinavian country that has de-established its church. Not all the Scandinavian countries have an established ch...
Christian Allard
SNP
If there is a legal problem with the bill, is the relationship between church and state a bigger issue than equal marriage?
Aidan O’Neill
I think that that is a problem. I am anticipating an issue that might arise. The bill is rather unusual in that it purports to give to dissenting ministers o...
Karon Monaghan
I agree with Aidan O’Neill that the issue creates a difficulty. Of course, article 9 protects religious organisations and churches as well as individuals—it ...
Marco Biagi
SNP
How does that work for denominations such as the United Reformed Church, or the Unitarians, which have no specific creed in a lot of areas and might, as a ma...