Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 12 December 2013
12 Dec 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill
I thank the clerks of, and the colleagues who remain on, the Justice Committee for the work that they have done and the commitment that they have shown over the past few months in dealing with the bill.
Despite the fact that many of the amendments that we proposed this afternoon were unsuccessful, it is appropriate to thank those who, on behalf of the Parliament, prepared those amendments for the high-quality work that they turned round.
Most of all, I record my thanks to the victims who came forward and shared their experience of the current situation and the system that operates to deliver justice throughout Scotland. There is no doubt that that experience has been a very mixed bag.
As I indicated earlier, the approach that has been taken in the bill was driven largely by a desire to ensure that Scotland fell into step with European directives on victims and witnesses, which is a laudable outcome in itself. However, I think that that approach has meant that there has not been quite enough focus on the needs of victims and witnesses in the light of the reality of their experience in our system. To that extent, I am disappointed at the lack of ambition to deliver on some of the needs that victims and witnesses have been so willing to share with us.
The cabinet secretary has indicated that the ability of services to deliver a uniformity of provision is extremely important for the future, and I agree. However, in evidence to the Justice Committee, it was made very clear by witnesses from the police and other services that, at the moment, they do not have the facilities to deliver the kind of information that is required in a format that witnesses and victims would find acceptable. That is a real worry and concern for the years ahead, as we look to see how we can improve the experience of witnesses. I hope that the cabinet secretary will remember that evidence and take particular account of the need to ensure that systems operate effectively and collaboratively within each service and across services.
We have rehearsed the impact on witnesses and victims of their experience in court. I found it moving to discover that their experience of the court process had an impact that almost matched their experience of the crime and to hear that they did not understand what was happening or the layout of the court, because no one had explained to them the processes that they were to enter into. Despite my experience of nearly four decades, something that had passed me by was the fact that many victims and families find it extremely galling and painful to constantly have to iterate the name of the accused to find out information about the case. There must be a way in which our system can adapt so that it can deal with such details, given the impact that they have on victims, which can remain with them for years.
On victims’ involvement in the victim notification scheme, it became apparent that to receive through the post, out of the blue, an official letter that is written in bureaucratic language and which is necessarily devoid of emotion takes the victim or their family right back to the crime and leaves them at home—often alone—to consider their next steps. In one case, the widow of the deceased in a murder trial was left to make contact with the authorities in the way that was indicated in the letter. She eventually received six letters that identified five named contacts, yet there was still an absence of information. Although we have considered how we can move forward into a brave new world, the cabinet secretary needs to understand that the world in which we exist is far removed from the guidance and the decisions that the Parliament has taken to protect our victims and witnesses.
We have spoken a great deal about the issue and the impact that it has on victims but, from a selfish point of view, the Parliament should be concerned about the range of victims and witnesses who have suffered as a result of the system. The system cannot work if the public do not have the confidence to engage with it. When people who have been victimised are witnesses in court, they are often left denuded of any confidence as citizens. They are left damaged and less able to rejoin the community as fully fledged citizens, and they are certainly less willing to engage with the system or to become involved in it again the future.
All the amendments were lodged with a view to improving the situation—to balancing the rights of the accused with the needs of the victims and witnesses in our system. I hope that the cabinet secretary has taken account of some of the evidence that we have offered through the afternoon and that he will take steps to improve the bill’s contents.
16:25
Despite the fact that many of the amendments that we proposed this afternoon were unsuccessful, it is appropriate to thank those who, on behalf of the Parliament, prepared those amendments for the high-quality work that they turned round.
Most of all, I record my thanks to the victims who came forward and shared their experience of the current situation and the system that operates to deliver justice throughout Scotland. There is no doubt that that experience has been a very mixed bag.
As I indicated earlier, the approach that has been taken in the bill was driven largely by a desire to ensure that Scotland fell into step with European directives on victims and witnesses, which is a laudable outcome in itself. However, I think that that approach has meant that there has not been quite enough focus on the needs of victims and witnesses in the light of the reality of their experience in our system. To that extent, I am disappointed at the lack of ambition to deliver on some of the needs that victims and witnesses have been so willing to share with us.
The cabinet secretary has indicated that the ability of services to deliver a uniformity of provision is extremely important for the future, and I agree. However, in evidence to the Justice Committee, it was made very clear by witnesses from the police and other services that, at the moment, they do not have the facilities to deliver the kind of information that is required in a format that witnesses and victims would find acceptable. That is a real worry and concern for the years ahead, as we look to see how we can improve the experience of witnesses. I hope that the cabinet secretary will remember that evidence and take particular account of the need to ensure that systems operate effectively and collaboratively within each service and across services.
We have rehearsed the impact on witnesses and victims of their experience in court. I found it moving to discover that their experience of the court process had an impact that almost matched their experience of the crime and to hear that they did not understand what was happening or the layout of the court, because no one had explained to them the processes that they were to enter into. Despite my experience of nearly four decades, something that had passed me by was the fact that many victims and families find it extremely galling and painful to constantly have to iterate the name of the accused to find out information about the case. There must be a way in which our system can adapt so that it can deal with such details, given the impact that they have on victims, which can remain with them for years.
On victims’ involvement in the victim notification scheme, it became apparent that to receive through the post, out of the blue, an official letter that is written in bureaucratic language and which is necessarily devoid of emotion takes the victim or their family right back to the crime and leaves them at home—often alone—to consider their next steps. In one case, the widow of the deceased in a murder trial was left to make contact with the authorities in the way that was indicated in the letter. She eventually received six letters that identified five named contacts, yet there was still an absence of information. Although we have considered how we can move forward into a brave new world, the cabinet secretary needs to understand that the world in which we exist is far removed from the guidance and the decisions that the Parliament has taken to protect our victims and witnesses.
We have spoken a great deal about the issue and the impact that it has on victims but, from a selfish point of view, the Parliament should be concerned about the range of victims and witnesses who have suffered as a result of the system. The system cannot work if the public do not have the confidence to engage with it. When people who have been victimised are witnesses in court, they are often left denuded of any confidence as citizens. They are left damaged and less able to rejoin the community as fully fledged citizens, and they are certainly less willing to engage with the system or to become involved in it again the future.
All the amendments were lodged with a view to improving the situation—to balancing the rights of the accused with the needs of the victims and witnesses in our system. I hope that the cabinet secretary has taken account of some of the evidence that we have offered through the afternoon and that he will take steps to improve the bill’s contents.
16:25
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-08562, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on the Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill.I advise the chamber ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
I am pleased to open the debate. Much time is spent talking about how our criminal justice system works and rightly so. However, in doing so, we must not lea...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Before I call the next speaker, I advise Parliament that we are very tight for time. I apologise to the two members who will not be able to be called in the ...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I thank the clerks of, and the colleagues who remain on, the Justice Committee for the work that they have done and the commitment that they have shown over ...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
I welcome the opportunity to speak in the stage 3 debate on the bill, which the Scottish Government introduced as far back as February. The bill provides for...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
We move to the open debate. Speeches are to be of three minutes, as previously indicated.16:28
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
I am pleased to recognise that section 1 of the bill refers to a victim as someone“who is or appears to be a victim”.We must always remember that, until cour...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
The member is in her final minute.
Christine Grahame
SNP
I accept that there is as much variation among witnesses as there is in the features on our faces, so I find the part of the bill that deals with vulnerable ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Many thanks for that.16:31
John Pentland (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
People can find court proceedings stressful at the best of times without having to recount in intensive detail not only the crimes that they may have been th...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I refer members to my declaration in the register of members’ interests that I am a member of the Faculty of Advocates.It seems a long while ago since we emb...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
It is important to remember that crimes are not simply statistics and that, behind every one, there is a victim whom we have a responsibility to protect. Alt...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
Lab
“Trust us.” That is the plea to adult survivors of sexual and physical abuse. “Trust us.” That is what we ask of them, in asking them to participate in the n...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I thank members for curtailing their speeches, and I apologise to Sandra White and John Finnie for being unable to call them. We come to closing speeches.16:43
Margaret Mitchell
Con
As I said in my opening speech, the bill contains some important measures that will help people who are affected by crime. Consequently, the Scottish Conserv...
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
Scottish Labour will support the bill at decision time. We believe that the bill will make a positive difference to the experience of victims and witnesses d...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
I now call on Kenny MacAskill to wind up the debate. Cabinet secretary—you have until five o’clock.16:51
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
First, I thank Duncan McNeil for his contribution. Understandably, the amendments and, indeed, the debate throughout have concentrated on the victims and wit...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
Is a pilot outside the provisions of the bill?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
We have to look at what will provide best for victims and witnesses, especially those whom Rape Crisis Scotland is dealing with. That may be a pilot, a schem...