Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 25 September 2013
25 Sep 2013 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Children and Young People (Named Persons)
I welcome the opportunity to open this debate for the Scottish Labour Party. We support the principles of getting it right for every child and welcome the move to incorporate elements of GIRFEC into statute. However, there is a host of views on the issue of the named person, ranging from those of the wide range of children’s organisations that support the approach, to the concerns of parents and others about the rights and responsibilities of parents, the rights of children, the need to protect confidentiality and the capacity of universal services—namely health and education—to take on the role.
I believe that everyone in the chamber would want to see the bill focus absolutely on how we can best support families and children, and in particular how we can improve the life chances of Scotland’s poorest and most disadvantaged children. With that in mind, the Labour amendment highlights that we are still in the committee scrutiny stages of the bill; indeed, we are barely midway through stage 1. Members of the Education and Culture Committee have heard, and will continue to hear, evidence about the philosophy and principles of the bill and the practicalities of the named person approach. I fully expect a number of amendments to be lodged at later stages.
While it is so fresh in our minds, I propose to refer to some of the evidence that has been provided to the Education and Culture Committee up to now. At yesterday’s meeting, we heard from Highland Council, which was the pathfinder authority for GIRFEC in 2006. At that time, there was no mention of a named person, but the value of the role emerged as the model was developed, and was fully implemented by the council in 2010.
Both the written and oral evidence from Highland Council to the committee highlighted the reduced bureaucracy, improvements in outcomes for children and families and empowerment of staff that have arisen from the named person approach, which have allowed the council to reinvest resources in, for example, additional health visitors.
It remains to be seen how transferable that experience would be to other parts of Scotland, especially given the resource concerns that are being expressed widely. This week, colleagues on the Finance Committee scrutinised the bill’s resource implications and the assumptions that are made in the financial memorandum. For example, funding for training of the education staff who will be expected to carry out GIRFEC functions seems to have been budgeted for as a one-off cost in the financial memorandum. I presume that it is expected that the cost will in later years be absorbed into budgets. If the training is not seen as additional and funded appropriately, something will have to give to make way for it in future years—but what? Training is clearly essential to enable the named person to adapt to the new role, but also to enable them to make judgments on cases as they arise.
Thus we see that the named person proposal clearly has implications for the staff who will be expected to take on the role. The Educational Institute of Scotland and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children have both raised concerns about resources, and the Royal College of Nursing has estimated that an additional 450 health visitors will be required to fulfil the requirements of the named person role as outlined in the bill. Unison has stated:
“As they stand, the responsibilities will require additional front-line time and administrative support and it is unlikely that agencies will be able to easily allocate those resources.”
In its written evidence, Unison highlighted the need for clarification of the role of the named person and, crucially, of where and how the role relates to the lead professional. Our amendment calls for that clarity.
It is clear from the number of questions that are being asked that the role of the named person must be further explained and clearly defined. There is a strong commitment from all sides to improving life chances for children and families in Scotland; I see the strong engagement around the issue as a measure of the commitment that is shown by organisations in the public and third sectors in advocating on behalf of the children of Scotland.
I believe that everyone in the chamber would want to see the bill focus absolutely on how we can best support families and children, and in particular how we can improve the life chances of Scotland’s poorest and most disadvantaged children. With that in mind, the Labour amendment highlights that we are still in the committee scrutiny stages of the bill; indeed, we are barely midway through stage 1. Members of the Education and Culture Committee have heard, and will continue to hear, evidence about the philosophy and principles of the bill and the practicalities of the named person approach. I fully expect a number of amendments to be lodged at later stages.
While it is so fresh in our minds, I propose to refer to some of the evidence that has been provided to the Education and Culture Committee up to now. At yesterday’s meeting, we heard from Highland Council, which was the pathfinder authority for GIRFEC in 2006. At that time, there was no mention of a named person, but the value of the role emerged as the model was developed, and was fully implemented by the council in 2010.
Both the written and oral evidence from Highland Council to the committee highlighted the reduced bureaucracy, improvements in outcomes for children and families and empowerment of staff that have arisen from the named person approach, which have allowed the council to reinvest resources in, for example, additional health visitors.
It remains to be seen how transferable that experience would be to other parts of Scotland, especially given the resource concerns that are being expressed widely. This week, colleagues on the Finance Committee scrutinised the bill’s resource implications and the assumptions that are made in the financial memorandum. For example, funding for training of the education staff who will be expected to carry out GIRFEC functions seems to have been budgeted for as a one-off cost in the financial memorandum. I presume that it is expected that the cost will in later years be absorbed into budgets. If the training is not seen as additional and funded appropriately, something will have to give to make way for it in future years—but what? Training is clearly essential to enable the named person to adapt to the new role, but also to enable them to make judgments on cases as they arise.
Thus we see that the named person proposal clearly has implications for the staff who will be expected to take on the role. The Educational Institute of Scotland and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children have both raised concerns about resources, and the Royal College of Nursing has estimated that an additional 450 health visitors will be required to fulfil the requirements of the named person role as outlined in the bill. Unison has stated:
“As they stand, the responsibilities will require additional front-line time and administrative support and it is unlikely that agencies will be able to easily allocate those resources.”
In its written evidence, Unison highlighted the need for clarification of the role of the named person and, crucially, of where and how the role relates to the lead professional. Our amendment calls for that clarity.
It is clear from the number of questions that are being asked that the role of the named person must be further explained and clearly defined. There is a strong commitment from all sides to improving life chances for children and families in Scotland; I see the strong engagement around the issue as a measure of the commitment that is shown by organisations in the public and third sectors in advocating on behalf of the children of Scotland.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-07783, in the name of Liz Smith, on named persons. The debate is oversubscribed and we are extremely tigh...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
I do not think that anyone who followed the Daniel Pelka case this summer could be anything other than repulsed by the depths of the depravity that confronte...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Aileen Campbell)
SNP
Liz Smith is hugely misrepresenting the intention behind the bill, and I will certainly be making some remarks about our intentions in my opening speech. How...
Liz Smith
Con
If the minister cares to read much of the evidence on this, she will see that, among the legal community in particular, there are deep-seated concerns, some ...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
The member is, like me, a member of the Education and Culture Committee and will know that a consistent theme that has emerged over the past two years in our...
Liz Smith
Con
I do not accept that. The fact is that the approach taken to GIRFEC in the Highlands has been hugely successful and, as many witnesses who have given evidenc...
The Minister for Children and Young People (Aileen Campbell)
SNP
The Scottish Government believes that action must be taken to put in place a proportionate system of protection, nurture and support to give all our children...
Liz Smith
Con
Is not it the case that those parents were parents of children who required additional support rather than parents whose families did not have problems?
Aileen Campbell
SNP
I will go on to talk about some more parental input to the process as I make progress in my opening remarks.As the evidence from Highland Council eloquently ...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the minister say that she needs to do more to convince parents that the idea is good? If she accepts that, how does she plan to do that over the months ...
Aileen Campbell
SNP
Absolutely. As the bill progresses through Parliament, we will be able to ensure that our narrative deals with some of the issues that parents raise. As I sa...
Liz Smith
Con
Will the minister give way?
Aileen Campbell
SNP
No.That is why I believe that the named person service should be based in the universal services of health and education. We are not changing what they do; w...
Annabel Goldie (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
The context in which I made that observation was in relation to health visitors and the option for authorities to be able to look at families about which con...
Aileen Campbell
SNP
Perhaps there is a bit of inconsistency from the Conservatives. Last session, they seemed to agree with all that we are trying to achieve with GIRFEC, but in...
Jayne Baxter (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to open this debate for the Scottish Labour Party. We support the principles of getting it right for every child and welcome the mo...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Final minute.
Jayne Baxter
Lab
I hope that the Scottish Government will listen to the many constructive suggestions that have been made. What we have in the named person for every child is...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
In turning to the open debate, I am afraid that I have to advise members that the debate is oversubscribed, so we may have to lose a member from it. Speeches...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Unfortunately, I have to begin by expressing my disappointment that we are having this debate at this time, and that the Conservative group has brought to th...
Liz Smith
Con
As was said earlier this afternoon, is it not helpful to have a parliamentary debate to flesh out some of the concerns that have already been raised? We have...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I am sorry, but Liz Smith spent part of her speech criticising specific points in the evidence about particular words and their definitions. It is exactly th...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Oh, come on! Interruption.
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
Order, please.
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
However, we are where we are, and on the balance of the evidence that the committee has received thus far, it is clear that there is widespread support for t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I call Ken Macintosh, to be followed by Clare Adamson.16:21
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab)
Lab
I find myself in unfamiliar territory. I have always supported the GIRFEC approach to child protection and I continue to back the principles behind getting i...
Aileen Campbell
SNP
Ken Macintosh grossly misrepresents what the named person is. There are many times and instances in which the child—like his children and my children—will no...
Ken Macintosh
Lab
I have no difficulty accessing my children’s teacher, health visitor or anyone else, and I do not see why they have to be a named person. The approach does n...
The Deputy Presiding Officer
Lab
I repeat to members that I have no extra time available in this debate; there are no seconds at all.I call Gavin Brown, to be followed by George Adam.16:26