Committee
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee 21 May 2024
21 May 2024 · S6 · Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee
Item of business
Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Thank you. I call Edward Mountain—that is me, of course—to speak to amendment 121. Laughter. Apparently, I have to say “Edward Mountain” to ensure that it appears on the record, so I have done that. I submitted amendment 121 ahead of Murdo Fraser submitting his amendment 201. I acknowledge the exceptional work that Murdo Fraser has done in relation to fly-tipping. The reason why I submitted my amendment was to stiffen the penalties for people who are responsible for fly-tipping. We should be under no illusion that fly-tipping involves only household waste; it also involves commercial and industrial waste. The waste that can be deposited on people’s land is phenomenal. The people who are responsible for dumping that waste can be people who cannot be bothered to go as far as the dump, but they can also be organised crime syndicates who are collecting rubbish and then dumping it out, or they can just be people who have been paid to dump it. We heard in our stage 1 evidence that it is really important that we stop fly-tipping and make sure that waste goes to the right places to be recycled. In most cases, it is very easy to go to a recycling dump with your rubbish. Some councils have made that more difficult by organising booking systems—which are unhelpful, in my opinion—but it is still easy to do that. However, rubbish continues to be dumped in the countryside. The point of my amendment is to increase the fine in order to put people off. It is deeply disconcerting when you spend a weekend picking up tyres, stacking them into trailers and taking them to the council tip to be charged £3 for every tyre that you put in, because somebody else has decided to dump them on your ground. Not long ago, I received a deep-freeze full of food from a shop that had obviously replaced its deep-freeze. Rather stupidly, they left the name of the shop in the deep-freeze, so I was able to return it to them. However, that is not always the case, and people end up having to clear up rubbish, which is why I want to see an increased fine to make it entirely clear that fly-tipping is inappropriate. I believe that Mr Fraser has discussed his amendments with the Government and reached some agreement, so I will not move my amendment at stage 2. However, I will look at the bill at stage 3 to make sure that it is entirely clear that people who are commercially benefiting from fly-tipping on other people’s land, whether it be farmland or someone’s garden, pay a maximum fine, and, frankly, £1,000 as a cap on such fines does not do it. That is all that I have to say. Mr Simpson wants to come in.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Edward Mountain)
Con
Good morning, and welcome to the 18th meeting in 2024 of the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee. Our only item of business this morning is day 3 of ou...
The Convener
Con
Amendment 24, in the name of Graham Simpson, is grouped with amendments 25 to 27, 29 and 35. Graham, can you speak to and move amendment 24 and speak to any ...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
So far, the process has been quite frustrating, but I hope that it will get better as the morning goes on. I always like to think that, at stage 2, members c...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
SNP
I apologise, Mr Simpson.
Graham Simpson
Con
Okay—just when you are ready.
Bob Doris
SNP
I have made my apologies, Mr Simpson. Perhaps you can get on with it.
The Convener
Con
We do have to give the member the right to speak, but I do not think, Mr Simpson, that we want to get into some situation where you are drawing attention to ...
Bob Doris
SNP
And I have apologised.
The Convener
Con
And you have apologised. Can we park that there, please, Mr Simpson?
Graham Simpson
Con
Absolutely. If I pop into a coffee shop to ask for an americano and maybe a sandwich, both are likely to come in containers that I might just throw away. Th...
The Convener
Con
Thank you very much, Graham. Do any other members wish to contribute? I think that Ben Macpherson wants to come in.
Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
SNP
Thank you, convener. I thought that the minister might speak first, so I apologise, minister, if this covers some of the things that you might want to say. ...
The Convener
Con
Thank you very much, Ben. Douglas Lumsden wants to say something. 08:45
Douglas Lumsden (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
Yes—I will say a few brief things. The deputy convener has raised a useful point in relation to when the power will be used and on what. The problem with th...
Bob Doris
SNP
Will the member give way?
Douglas Lumsden
Con
Of course.
Bob Doris
SNP
I find it quite helpful to have some of the concerns explained. During our stage 1 scrutiny in preparation for our report, we had a debate on the extent to w...
Douglas Lumsden
Con
I accept that. Mr Doris knows my position on framework bills. The reason why I am so much against their use is that we could end up approving legislation eve...
Monica Lennon (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
It is nice to come in after Douglas Lumsden, having heard him be very passionate about reusable items. Mr Lumsden, I ask you just to hold that thought. I wa...
The Convener
Con
Before I come to the minister, I would just add that I find it interesting that, when clarity is sought on issues, the Government’s position is always to ask...
The Minister for Climate Action (Gillian Martin)
SNP
Thank you, convener, and good morning, everyone. I want to start by addressing some general points that have been made about the regulations that would be in...
Douglas Lumsden
Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Gillian Martin
SNP
I will make a start on this point and then let Mr Lumsden in. The Scottish Government cannot support any of Graham Simpson’s amendments in this group, but I...
Douglas Lumsden
Con
On the minister’s initial point about the scrutiny process, the proposals would have to come through an SSI, but do you accept that, at that stage, we would ...
Gillian Martin
SNP
As Mr Lumsden has been in the Parliament for a few years now, he will know that a committee can have any deliberations that it wants on what evidence to take...
Graham Simpson
Con
I do not want to create a legal loophole either. It sounds as though the minister might accept what I am trying to achieve, but she is not happy with the wor...
Gillian Martin
SNP
Despite what Mr Simpson said in his opening comments, I am open to discussing anything that has a laudable intention. I understand why Mr Simpson has lodged ...
Graham Simpson
Con
May I intervene again, minister?
Gillian Martin
SNP
Yes.
Graham Simpson
Con
Thank you. Those comments were very positive. It is that kind of discussion ahead of stage 3 that I have been trying to achieve with a number of my amendment...