Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 17 May 2012
17 May 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Civilian Police Staff
Mr FitzPatrick would do well to focus on what we are here to focus on, which is the running of the service in this country, for which responsibility sits with the Scottish Government.
The motive behind the Government’s plans for a single national police force appears to be the cost savings that it believes can be made. However, as has been pointed out in the chamber and by expert witnesses in committee, the push for efficiency savings in our police forces has already begun. I am concerned that the majority of the additional savings seem to be destined to be made by further cutting the number of civilian staff who are employed by the police. I say “further cutting” because—as we heard from Lewis Macdonald—the number of civilian staff has already fallen dramatically in recent years. It is not for me or for any of us to quantify how many civilian staff our police need to employ, but the fact is that shedding more than 1,000 staff in just a couple of years cannot fail to have an impact on how our forces operate.
ACPOS has estimated that, in order to meet the Government’s pie-in-the-sky savings targets for the new single force, a further 2,000 civilian staff will have to be cut. Some of that number might be accounted for through rationalisation of certain functions, but with potential redundancies on such a massive scale it is inevitable that in order to fill the gaps police officers will have to be taken off front-line duties to fill other roles. I have many concerns about the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill that are, by now, fairly well documented, but it is this headlong rush—the need to hurry through the changes with little regard for the consequences—that I find really objectionable.
Chief Constable Kevin Smith—the man at ACPOS who is responsible for overseeing implementation of the new force—explained to the Finance Committee the situation in which he finds himself. I will quote him at length, because it is important to put this on the record.
“The Government’s outline business case does not quantify job cuts. However ... If we are to make the savings that have been set out in our budget for the next three years—and into the next spending review, in fact—the main focus will be on police staff.”
He continued:
“Although there will not be an automatic assumption that we will have to put ... a police officer”
into support roles,
“if we are to get to the numbers on which the savings are based, it is a distinct possibility that that will happen. That will not be a good thing professionally or politically, and I do not think that the public will think it a good thing, either. It is a real risk.”—[Official Report, Finance Committee, 22 February 2012; c 670-671.]
He also said:
“The danger now is that we will be so focused on making cuts in financial budgets for next year and the following one that we do not get into what the exercise should be about, which is developing the best model of policing for the benefit of the people of Scotland.”—[Official Report, Finance Committee, 22 February 2012; c 669.]
Although Chief Constable Smith was talking about the hypothetical situation when the new force comes in, his comments are equally relevant in considering the situation that already exists. Staff are being lost to make savings, but the jobs that they performed still need to be done. In the year to July 2011, Grampian Police reduced its civilian staff by 14 per cent. They lost, among others, a camera enforcement officer, two community wardens, an early intervention worker, an intelligence manager, a welfare officer, a wildlife crime education officer and three road safety advisors. Those jobs still need to be done; the only difference is that they will now have to be done by officers who might otherwise be out on the beat. The more civilian staff who are lost, the more officers will be taken off front-line duties to cover their responsibilities.
There can only be one result, as another chief constable told me last year:
“De-civilianisation, which will occur if whole scale civilian job losses take place, will result in the current community focus model of policing reverting to a crime fighting/call response model of policing where officers run around answering calls for crimes that have occurred because they are no longer able to prevent them.”
That is the danger of losing civilian staff, and it is the danger of the Government’s ill-advised police reform bill.
I move amendment S4M-02906.1, after “public” to insert:
“; is concerned that the Scottish Government’s rushed timetable for the implementation of a national police force, along with unrealistic savings targets, will serve to exacerbate the problem and lead to significant further redundancies among civilian staff”.
09:39
The motive behind the Government’s plans for a single national police force appears to be the cost savings that it believes can be made. However, as has been pointed out in the chamber and by expert witnesses in committee, the push for efficiency savings in our police forces has already begun. I am concerned that the majority of the additional savings seem to be destined to be made by further cutting the number of civilian staff who are employed by the police. I say “further cutting” because—as we heard from Lewis Macdonald—the number of civilian staff has already fallen dramatically in recent years. It is not for me or for any of us to quantify how many civilian staff our police need to employ, but the fact is that shedding more than 1,000 staff in just a couple of years cannot fail to have an impact on how our forces operate.
ACPOS has estimated that, in order to meet the Government’s pie-in-the-sky savings targets for the new single force, a further 2,000 civilian staff will have to be cut. Some of that number might be accounted for through rationalisation of certain functions, but with potential redundancies on such a massive scale it is inevitable that in order to fill the gaps police officers will have to be taken off front-line duties to fill other roles. I have many concerns about the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill that are, by now, fairly well documented, but it is this headlong rush—the need to hurry through the changes with little regard for the consequences—that I find really objectionable.
Chief Constable Kevin Smith—the man at ACPOS who is responsible for overseeing implementation of the new force—explained to the Finance Committee the situation in which he finds himself. I will quote him at length, because it is important to put this on the record.
“The Government’s outline business case does not quantify job cuts. However ... If we are to make the savings that have been set out in our budget for the next three years—and into the next spending review, in fact—the main focus will be on police staff.”
He continued:
“Although there will not be an automatic assumption that we will have to put ... a police officer”
into support roles,
“if we are to get to the numbers on which the savings are based, it is a distinct possibility that that will happen. That will not be a good thing professionally or politically, and I do not think that the public will think it a good thing, either. It is a real risk.”—[Official Report, Finance Committee, 22 February 2012; c 670-671.]
He also said:
“The danger now is that we will be so focused on making cuts in financial budgets for next year and the following one that we do not get into what the exercise should be about, which is developing the best model of policing for the benefit of the people of Scotland.”—[Official Report, Finance Committee, 22 February 2012; c 669.]
Although Chief Constable Smith was talking about the hypothetical situation when the new force comes in, his comments are equally relevant in considering the situation that already exists. Staff are being lost to make savings, but the jobs that they performed still need to be done. In the year to July 2011, Grampian Police reduced its civilian staff by 14 per cent. They lost, among others, a camera enforcement officer, two community wardens, an early intervention worker, an intelligence manager, a welfare officer, a wildlife crime education officer and three road safety advisors. Those jobs still need to be done; the only difference is that they will now have to be done by officers who might otherwise be out on the beat. The more civilian staff who are lost, the more officers will be taken off front-line duties to cover their responsibilities.
There can only be one result, as another chief constable told me last year:
“De-civilianisation, which will occur if whole scale civilian job losses take place, will result in the current community focus model of policing reverting to a crime fighting/call response model of policing where officers run around answering calls for crimes that have occurred because they are no longer able to prevent them.”
That is the danger of losing civilian staff, and it is the danger of the Government’s ill-advised police reform bill.
I move amendment S4M-02906.1, after “public” to insert:
“; is concerned that the Scottish Government’s rushed timetable for the implementation of a national police force, along with unrealistic savings targets, will serve to exacerbate the problem and lead to significant further redundancies among civilian staff”.
09:39
References in this contribution
Motions, questions or amendments mentioned by their reference code.
- S4M-02906.1 Justice Motion
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The first item of business is a debate on motion S4M-02906, in name of Lewis Macdonald, on justice. Members who wish to take part in the debate should press ...
Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
It is a week since we debated the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill and it completed stage 1 of its passage through Parliament. We in the Labour Party s...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
Is Lewis Macdonald implying that this should not be an operational matter for the chief constable, who is accountable to the board? Is he really suggesting t...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
It is not a question of whether or not I think ministers should direct chief constables; the cabinet secretary has said that he will direct the chief constab...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
For the sake of balance, I point out that, in evidence, Chief Constable Kevin Smith said:“There is a notion that for every member of support staff that goes ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I will give you a few more minutes, Mr Macdonald.
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
Thank you, Presiding Officer.That is certainly ACPOS’s intention in its approach to the process, but it would not have told the Justice Committee that there ...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
I welcome the debate and the opportunity that it offers to consider an important issue. I say at the outset that the Government recognises and values the eno...
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Would the cabinet secretary be good enough to acknowledge that crime rates have fallen across Europe and that, in America, they are approaching a 50-year low...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
The situation is down to splendid work by the wider police family. I have commented that other factors are involved, but I believe that there is, particularl...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
Will the cabinet secretary nonetheless acknowledge that his current approach to civilian staff taking on roles that were formerly done by police officers is ...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
That takes me back to the point that that is an operational matter for the chief constable. It is not appropriate for me to intervene in Lothian and Borders ...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
What percentage cut will be made to the police budget as a result of the plans?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
We are protecting police budgets and police numbers. That contrasts with Yvette Cooper’s position, which is why I got a standing ovation at the Scottish Poli...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
In the context of the current events—the largest reform of Scotland’s policing for more than a generation—this morning’s debate is important and I thank the ...
Joe FitzPatrick (Dundee City West) (SNP)
SNP
How many civilian staff have lost their jobs through compulsory redundancy as a result of the Liberal Democrat-Conservative Government at Westminster?
Alison McInnes
LD
Mr FitzPatrick would do well to focus on what we are here to focus on, which is the running of the service in this country, for which responsibility sits wit...
David McLetchie (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I welcome the opportunity to debate the future of civilian staff in Scotland’s police forces, which touches on topics that we discussed last week during the ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We will now move to the open debate. Members have a strict four minutes. I regret that, if you take interventions, I will be not be able to give you addition...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
Obviously, we have to say that these are not times of plenty. Let us begin at the beginning. I repeat the cabinet secretary’s words:“we are making a virtue o...
Lewis Macdonald
Lab
Will the member give way?
Christine Grahame
SNP
I am sorry, but I have only four minutes, and I have things that I want to say.Thirdly, it is of course appropriate for two reasons that Opposition parties a...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The member has 30 seconds.
Christine Grahame
SNP
I say to Alison McInnes that crime figures and the fear of crime are falling notwithstanding civilian jobs going.In England, Theresa May was told by the Poli...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I am sorry to cut you off, Ms Grahame, but I need to call Graeme Pearson.09:49
Graeme Pearson (South Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
The effective delivery of policing requires, among other things, the Government to provide confidence to police and police staff about their future in respec...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
There is a strong sense of déjà vu about the debate. Last week, during the stage 1 debate on the Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Bill, I reminded the chamb...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member take an intervention?
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The member has no time to take an intervention.
Roderick Campbell
SNP
As the cabinet secretary acknowledged, support staff have made and will continue to make an important contribution to reducing crime and making Scotland safe...