Committee
Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee 22 November 2022
22 Nov 2022 · S6 · Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee
Item of business
Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Amendment 76, in the name of Pam Gosal, has already been debated with amendment 1. I call Pam Gosal to move or not move the amendment.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Joe FitzPatrick)
SNP
Good morning, and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2022 of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee. We have received no apologies this morning...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 21, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, is grouped with amendments 135, 137, 138, 142 and 111.
Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Con
Amendment 21 is a probing amendment that makes it clear that a gender recognition certificate does not change the status of a person as a parent under the Ge...
Tess White (North East Scotland) (Con)
Con
I have two amendments in the group. The main one is amendment 135, which seeks to place a duty on the Scottish ministers to encourage public understanding of...
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Good morning. Amendments 137 and 138 simply seek to clarify a particular situation. Last week, the cabinet secretary and a number of members told us that the...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
SNP
Good morning, cabinet secretary and colleagues. I say at the outset that amendment 111 in my name is a probing amendment. Prisons are clearly an area of con...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Housing and Local Government (Shona Robison)
SNP
As others have said, a later group of amendments will deal with the bill’s interaction with the Equality Act 2010. Amendments in that group seek to clarify t...
The Convener
SNP
I call Rachael Hamilton to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 21.
Rachael Hamilton
Con
I seek to withdraw amendment 21. All I will say about the amendments in this group is that I am sympathetic to Fulton MacGregor’s amendment 111 on the impact...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 133, in the name of Jamie Greene, is in a group on its own.
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I thank the committee for allowing me to attend this morning. I watched last week’s proceedings from afar, and I want to reflect on some of Michael Marra’s ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
Your comprehensive amendment refers to a GRC being “fraudulently obtained”. What would need to be shown in court to prove that? You will be aware of the cons...
Jamie Greene
Con
Ms McNeill makes a good point. My understanding is that it is already an offence to obtain a GRC fraudulently, so a bar has already been set in the eyes of t...
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
I will be voting against amendment 133. There is no evidence from other jurisdictions that operate similar gender recognition arrangements that gender recogn...
Shona Robison
SNP
Last week, I mentioned that, in principle, I would support the amendment. It is important to emphasise that Jamie Greene’s amendment 133 applies to the obtai...
Pauline McNeill
Lab
It is really important that the Government clarifies this point. We have heard a lot of talk about fraudulently making a declaration, but at no time has the ...
Shona Robison
SNP
It would always depend on the circumstances of the case, but, for example, if it could be shown that the person had no intention of living in the acquired ge...
Rachael Hamilton
Con
On that basis, would you consider defining “living in an acquired gender”? 09:30
Shona Robison
SNP
We discussed that last week, and I gave a number of extensive examples of how someone could show that they were living in their acquired gender. Those alread...
The Convener
SNP
I call Jamie Greene to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 133.
Jamie Greene
Con
I thank members and colleagues for their input on the issue. I will first address Maggie Chapman’s comments. I am clear that the purpose of the amendment i...
Shona Robison
SNP
At the end of my remarks, I should have put on record that there has been some further consideration of the use of the word “connected”, which needs to be cl...
Jamie Greene
Con
Yes; I presume that the cabinet secretary is speaking about proposed new subsection 22B(1). I am not a legal drafter; the amendment was prepared with the kin...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 133 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 6, Against 1, Abstentions 0. Amendment 133 agreed to. Amendment 14 moved—Maggie Chapman.
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 14 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Against Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 1, Against 6, Abstentions 0. Amendment 14 disagreed to. Section 14, as amended, agreed to. After section 14 Amendmen...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 135 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.