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Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

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1999–2026
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Showing 60 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Committee
17 Dec 2024
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
Thank you, convener, and good morning. Before I begin my statement, it will be helpful if I declare some relevant interests. I receive funding for an additional member of staff from three permissible donors—Friends at the End, Dignity in Dying and the Humanist Society Scotland...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
13 May 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Almost four years since I announced my intention to introduce a bill to allow terminally ill, competent adults the choice of an assisted death, Parliament finally has the opportunity to debate and vote on the general principles of that bill. I confess that I do not recall havi...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
17 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill
I understand Daniel Johnson’s point. I worked closely with the British Medical Association on the amendments that I lodged after stage 1 to provide reassurance on the section 104 order.On the point about guidance, any guidance or secondary legislation will have to be taken for...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 May 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I want to make a bit more progress. On the points that Pam Duncan-Glancy made about discrimination, societal issues and palliative care, the debate on the bill has enabled those issues to be raised, but I do not believe that the bill can address them. It is right and proper t...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Committee
18 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill
I thank Mr Balfour for setting out the rationale for his position. I also thank the committee for the extensive scrutiny that it has undertaken throughout stage 1 and stage 2. The stage 1 scrutiny included evidence on the bill’s protections for vulnerable groups in the conte...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I take the point that Bob Doris is making and I have heard that concern expressed. However, I do not think that there is any way of getting around the fact that, were the bill to be passed, assisted dying would be a choice as part of end-of-life care. As I said, I see it as a ...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
17 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill
I thank colleagues on both sides of the debate for their contributions. I particularly thank those who are making their final contributions in the chamber, whether, as Douglas Lumsden and Paul O’Kane observed, they realise it yet or not.Today’s debate has certainly emulated th...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
13 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I begin in customary fashion by reminding members of my entry in the register of members’ interests in relation to the support that I receive from three separate campaign organisations in the context of the bill. I also reflect that there might be other members who have partic...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 May 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for that intervention. I do not think that that is the case. Polling consistently shows support, not only in the population at large but across the disability community. That is not to say that there is not a very real need to open up that discussion ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
25 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I understand the point that Pam Duncan-Glancy has made, which is why I am supportive of the assessments being carried out. However, the assessments will not necessarily speak to the specific circumstances of any individual who is going through the process. As I have said, it i...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
12 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
As Michelle Thomson will have seen, under section 18A there is no duty on a medical practitioner to raise the topic of assisted dying, so ultimately the court would have to take a decision as to whether, given the way in which the legislation is framed, there was a case to be ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The difficulty is in making eligibility contingent on a person having a care plan in place or having access to social care or palliative care. Ultimately, that needs to be a decision for the individual. Regarding Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendment 227, I support people with a term...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Committee
25 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I begin where I concluded at the last meeting by reminding the committee of my declaration of interests. I am supported by Dignity in Dying Scotland, Friends at the End, and the Humanist Society Scotland. With regard to Jackie Baillie’s amendments 54, 55, 57, 64 and 61, I wis...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I want to take Audrey Nicoll back to her earlier comment. As I have acknowledged, no two assisted dying laws anywhere in the world are exactly the same. As we have been discussing this morning and this afternoon, we must ensure how the legislation, if passed, will work in prac...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
12 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
On Stuart McMillan’s amendment 112, I find myself in whole-hearted agreement with my fellow islander, Dr Alasdair Allan, on the concerns that he raised. If the bill is passed, it will be after widespread consultation with the public, extensive engagement with the public and st...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
12 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I offer a word of consolation to Daniel Johnson, if I may—you have not really cut your parliamentary teeth until you have had to stand up and speak against your own amendment because you have only belatedly realised that it would do the exact opposite of what you had intended ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
17 Dec 2024
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
As I said, it will ultimately have to be a decision for the Government whether to increase investment in that area. In the report from the House of Commons Health and Social Care Committee in February this year, which was produced on the back of an 18-month inquiry into assist...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I echo Brian Whittle’s comments on the Scottish Government’s engagement in the process. My conversations with the Scottish Government have been constructive throughout but, for the reasons that Brian Whittle indicates, notwithstanding its neutrality, there are issues about the...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I am afraid that I am going to proceed, Mr Balfour. The Scottish Government has identified potential legislative competence issues. I am aware that the Scottish Government is working with the United Kingdom Government to ensure the full operation of the bill, should it be pas...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
11 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Thank you, convener. I start with an apology that my remarks are, again, going to be on the lengthy side. Again, it is a reflection of the fact that I want to do justice to the amendments in the group. I thank Miles Briggs for helpfully setting out the rationale for his amendm...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
18 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I thank Patrick Harvie for setting out the rationale for the amendments and wish Ross Greer a speedy recovery—he is lined up to speak in a few debates this week. It is fair to say that I fully support folk being available to help people to understand and navigate the process....
Liam McArthur LD Committee
18 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I thank Sue Webber and Pam Duncan-Glancy for speaking to their amendments. I turn to Pam Duncan-Glancy’s amendment 252, which seeks to make it an offence to “publish, distribute or display any advertisement, notice or material which ... promotes ... encourages, or ... solicit...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
11 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I appreciate Mr Doris’s point. If additional information could usefully be added to the process, I am happy to consider it. In relation to schedule 2, a practitioner would already need to be satisfied that quite a lot of details had been met before those forms were signed. St...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
That is a helpful clarification from the cabinet secretary. He may want to develop that argument in his remarks later on. I will certainly reflect on that, as I am sure colleagues across the chamber will.I turn to Audrey Nicoll’s amendments 275, 276 and 277, which all seek to ...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
12 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I have said from the outset that I envisage assisted dying to be an opt-in service. That has been reflected in some of the changes that I have made to the bill since its introduction. I have also recognised that the service will look different in my part of the world compared ...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
12 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I echo Clare Adamson’s comments about the debate and Bob Doris’s comments about the confliction that arises in our discussions on this issue. They reflect the discussion that we had at some length at stage 2; Brian Whittle has described clearly the concerns that he set out the...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
12 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I start by thanking Stephen Kerr and Pam Duncan-Glancy in particular, as well as Elena Whitham, for their contributions to the short debate on this group of amendments and for the tone in which they sought to prosecute their arguments, which reflected the debate at stage 2.I d...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
10 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I will speak first to my amendments in the group. The bill, as amended at stage 2, allows the Scottish ministers, by regulations, to set out the training, qualifications and experience required of co-ordinating registered medical practitioners, independent registered medical p...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
29 Feb 2024
Marie Curie’s Great Daffodil Appeal 2024
As other members have done, I pay tribute to all Marie Curie nurses, staff and volunteers for their herculean efforts on behalf of dying people and their families. I welcome those of them who are in the public gallery to listen to the debate. I thank Paul Sweeney for allowing ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
17 Dec 2024
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
Obviously, the numbers are driven by requests for assisted dying. It is worth pointing out that requests do not necessarily always result in people taking the medication or following through with the process. About a third of those who apply for an assisted death in jurisdicti...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
17 Dec 2024
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
I acknowledge that the figures in relation to 90 per cent of people dying at home reflect over the final six months of life, as opposed to the location in which they ended up passing away. Looking at how assisted dying is operating in practice in other jurisdictions, it is not...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
17 Dec 2024
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
I have been on committees that have been quick to criticise financial memorandums that have given broader ranges. I have acknowledged that there are different models that we could use, and that, if we used a different model, we would probably come up with different figures. W...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
17 Dec 2024
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
The Netherlands uses an entirely different model. Its criteria have always been more expansive, as have the eligibility criteria in Belgium and, more recently, in Canada, where assisted dying legislation arose from a case brought before the Supreme Court of Canada on the basis...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
17 Dec 2024
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
I would think that most of the jurisdictions have a prognosis timescale. For example, in California, the six months is linked to entitlement to a hospice at home service. It is driven by a desire to ensure that assisted dying is accessed by those with, as I have described in m...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
17 Dec 2024
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
That is an interesting argument. Funding can unlock many things, but it cannot unlock everything. The degree to which medical professionals engage with the process might be about workload—for example, we spoke to practitioners in California who limit the number of assisted dea...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 May 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I thank Liam Kerr for that intervention. He is correct in that concerns have been raised about that definition in some quarters, although the evidence that was given to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee by the likes of the Royal College of General Practitioners and o...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 May 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
That is a crucially important point. Fundamentally, the bill is about choice, and choice works both ways. I am open to discussions about how far that could be extended, assuming that a system could be put in place that would not impede the access of those who met the eligibili...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I agree with Fulton MacGregor’s final sentiment about the way in which we must embed the service. That is crucial. I thank other colleagues for setting out the rationale for their amendments. Turning to Murdo Fraser’s amendment 148 and the issue of the administration and regu...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I am never ambivalent, Patrick Harvie—you will know that. I am reluctant to support the amendments as they are framed, but Jackie Baillie raised some reasonable points in relation to the regulation of services, particularly those outwith the NHS. Fulton MacGregor spoke about ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Committee
11 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Good morning. I start with a declaration of interests and remind the committee that I receive support from three separate campaign organisations—Dignity in Dying, Friends at the End and the Humanist Society Scotland—that have helped in supporting the costs of a website during ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
11 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I thank Brian Whittle for that clarification, which is helpful in addressing an issue that came up in relation to future care plans: the fact that, however desirable they are and whatever benefits may derive from them in terms of understanding the individual’s wishes at the en...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
11 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Some of that will have to be captured in training, but, as I said earlier, it is unreasonable to expect all GPs or consultants to be specialists in the areas that have been referred to. That is why the option to refer on is available under the bill, the need for which would em...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
11 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Again, I understand the intention behind the suggestion. My concern is that putting such a provision in the bill would make it more likely that individuals would be reluctant to declare, or be open with the medical professionals about, such circumstances. Therefore, the amendm...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
18 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
We cannot give you a grouping all to yourself if you are not going to play ball, Mr Johnson. I thank Daniel Johnson for lodging the amendments and for speaking to them and explaining their rationale, which I entirely understand. I accept that there would be a degree of arbitr...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
18 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The disadvantage of speaking to my amendment, and the others, at this point is that I am doing so before I have had the opportunity to hear Mr Doris set out the rationale for his own amendment. I have misgivings about the way in which Mr Doris’s amendment 125 is phrased, but ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
18 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
That there is interaction and interplay between assisted dying, palliative care and hospice care in jurisdictions in which similar laws have been passed is undeniable. The evidence that the committee took, however, suggests that assisted dying led not only to additional fundin...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
25 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I can respond to your questions, Ms Webber, or you can continue to intervene. The point that I was making was in response to your point about the budget allocation in New South Wales, which was a Government decision. If there is a feeling that the hospice sector—or indeed pa...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
25 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I understand the rationale; I even understand the rationale for setting the timeframe at two years. However, I go back to the point that the five-year review of how the act is operating sits alongside a requirement for the annual reporting of figures in relation to the number ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
25 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I am sorry, Mr Kerr. My view is also informed by the experience in other jurisdictions. Two years would be too short for the first review, and a recurring review every two years thereafter would be excessive, particularly given the bill’s requirement—as I said—for annual repo...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Again, I reject the reference to “assisted suicide”. We can have a debate at another point about the difference between the mental state of someone who is seeking to take their own life and someone with a terminal illness who is seeking to take control over that process. Wh...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I get the point that you are making. Ideally, one would want people to have as much advance planning, including in terms of palliative care, as possible. However, making such plans part of the eligibility criteria is highly problematic, for some of the reasons that I have touc...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I say to Mr Mountain that, as I have been clear throughout this process, it is not a question of either/or. We need to invest in good palliative care to improve access to it where it does not exist and to improve the palliative care itself where that might be needed. However, ...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I do not support Douglas Ross’s amendment 256, which seeks to amend the provisions in section 22B on the differentiation of funding streams to require that statutory resources and charitable funding not be directed towards assisted dying. I believe that the bill as it stands c...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
11 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I will certainly turn to that in speaking to the amendments that touch on those points—which, if memory serves, are amendments that Stephen Kerr himself has lodged. In answer to his question, though, I would expect the medical professionals to exercise their judgment and use t...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
10 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Two things can be true at the same time. It is an additional layer of assurance for members in speaking to what has always been the policy intention of the bill, which is to give access to those at the very end of life. I know that palliative care professionals have expressed ...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
10 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I have accepted a number of amendments that will tighten up the safeguards that are related to coercion as well as other interests in relation to capacity. The bill is heavily safeguarded in that respect. More can and would be done, not only through secondary legislation, but ...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
10 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I entirely agree with Mr Whittle. That is already reflected in the bill to a large extent, but other amendments that I will come on to discuss capture the point that he entirely fairly makes.Section 7(1) of the bill requires the assessing doctor to“explain to and discuss with ...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
10 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I am not sure that it is a slippery slope. It is the Parliament doing what it should, which is to scrutinise legislation, engage with those on both sides of the debate—which I think we have managed to achieve—and take on board ideas that reflect concerns that are genuinely exp...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
19 Dec 2013
Home Office Go Home Campaign
I am conscious that Bob Doris and Neil Findlay also lodged motions on this subject, but I congratulate Jackie Baillie not only on lodging the motion but on securing this afternoon’s debate. I also thank the Scottish Refugee Council for its comprehensive, detailed and measured ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
27 May 2015
Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Shortly after first being elected in 2007, I sat in the chamber listening to a members’ business debate that was led by my former colleague Jeremy Purvis. He was the sponsor of an earlier bill that was aimed at achieving many of the same objectives as the one that we are consi...
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Committee

Finance and Public Administration Committee 17 December 2024

17 Dec 2024 · S6 · Finance and Public Administration Committee
Item of business
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
Thank you, convener, and good morning. Before I begin my statement, it will be helpful if I declare some relevant interests. I receive funding for an additional member of staff from three permissible donors—Friends at the End, Dignity in Dying and the Humanist Society Scotland—and the support is currently for a staff member one day per week. The Humanist Society Scotland also funds the development and maintenance costs of the domain and the hosting of a website that I use to publish materials relating to the bill—that was, ostensibly, prior to the formal introduction of the bill. Dignity in Dying paid the costs that were associated with my visit to California as part of a cross-party delegation of MSPs that met various organisations and individuals in relation to the state’s End of Life Option Act, and I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests for more details on that. Members will be aware that I formally introduced the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill in Parliament in March this year, following the usual members’ bills process, with the support of the non-Government bills unit. The bill aims to allow mentally competent terminally ill eligible adults in Scotland to voluntarily choose to be provided with assistance by health professionals to end their own lives. The approach that I have taken in the bill and related accompanying documents is purposefully quite different from that taken in previous proposals and bills on the issue that the Scottish Parliament has considered. The approach and the estimated number of people who may request assistance reflect the bill’s provisions and the form of assisted dying. In effect, I am legislating to allow a relatively small cohort of people who request assistance to end their own lives to be provided with such assistance. There have been suggestions that the numbers involved and, likewise, the costs will be higher than anticipated. However, the jurisdictions where numbers are significantly higher either do not have comparable legislation to the bill that I have introduced or have notably different circumstances from those in Scotland, and the financial memorandum reflects that. My intention from the outset was to introduce a bill that would make it legally possible for terminally ill adults, if assessed as eligible, to be provided by willing health professionals with assistance to end their own lives. I wanted a bill that detailed, as far as possible and within the Scottish Parliament’s competence, the process that is involved before, during and after. The financial memorandum reflects the approach that is taken, the bill’s provisions and the limitations that the accompanying documents acknowledge. To be eligible, a person must be terminally ill, aged 16 or over, have been a resident in Scotland for at least 12 continuous months, be registered with a GP in Scotland and have the mental capacity to make the request. A person must have had health and social care information and options—for example, about palliative and hospice care—and information about assisted dying explained to them prior to making a final decision. A person must also make the decision of their own free will, without coercion or pressure, to the reasonable satisfaction of healthcare professionals. 11:15 The bill will establish a lawful process for an eligible person to access assisted dying that I believe to be safe, controlled and transparent. The process broadly involves a person stating that they wish to be provided with assistance to end their own life and being assessed for eligibility by two doctors, acting independently of each other. If assessed as eligible, a person can give a further indication that they wish to continue and then be provided, at a time of their choosing, with the substance for self-administration to end their own life. I believe that that will give people a choice and enable them to avoid the existential pain, suffering and symptoms that can be associated with terminal illness. In turn, it will afford them autonomy, dignity and control over the end of life. The bill will make it lawful for a person to voluntarily access dying if they meet the criteria as set out in the bill and for willing health professionals to assist in that process, while continuing to ensure that assisting death outwith the bill’s provisions remains unlawful. The bill also provides that no one is compelled to participate directly in the process if they have a conscientious objection to doing so. The provisions ensure that relevant data and information is collected, processed and published in annual reports to aid transparency and understanding. In addition, there will be a requirement for the legislation to be reviewed after five years. That will afford the Scottish Parliament, health and care professions and wider society an opportunity to take stock of the practical experience of assisted dying. The financial memorandum—for the first time with any piece of proposed legislation on this subject in the UK—attempts to estimate the costs and savings that would be associated with implementation and the impacts of such legislation as far as it was felt reasonably possible to do so. That was done in the absence of any precedent for similar enacted legislation in the UK, and with often very little relevant or meaningful data—or, in some cases, none. The approach that is taken in the financial memorandum is based on an estimation of the potential annual number of people who will request an assisted death and the number of people who will go on to self-administer a substance and end their own life. Estimates are provided for the first year in which assisted dying will be available, and the financial memorandum projects the figures over 20 years. Comparable data from Oregon in the US and Victoria in Australia was used to inform those estimates. On the basis of the assumptions and methodologies used in any available meaningful data, estimates for possible costs to the Scottish Administration and for health and care services in Scotland are provided. The memorandum acknowledges that the legislation is likely to result in savings as well as costs, and that, broadly speaking, it is expected to be cost neutral. That is because a cost is associated with the processes that are involved in a person being assessed and potentially provided with assistance to end their own life, such as clinical and associated administration costs, and because there is a commensurate cost saving from a person no longer receiving care for however long they might have lived. International evidence indicates that case numbers are likely to rise annually, certainly in the initial years of assisted dying being available. Therefore, to give an indication of how rising case numbers could affect costs and savings, the memorandum gives estimated figures for year 1 and then on-going costs until year 20. Following the publication of the memorandum, it came to my attention that table 3, which sets out estimated costs to health services, and table 4, which sets out estimated overall costs, conflated some of the year 1 and on-going costs and year 20 estimated costs. I subsequently wrote on 17 June to this committee, as well as to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, to amend and present some of those costs more accurately and clearly. I wrote again to both committees on 14 October to note two other minor discrepancies. The net effect of the issues that are noted in those letters is that the upper-end total estimated costs of the bill are £4,036 higher than those that are estimated in the financial memorandum. Although they are relatively minor, I extend an apology again to the committee for those errors. I read with interest the 22 responses that you received to your call for views, and I thank all of those who took the time to respond. I note that NHS Fife, which was the only health board to respond, considered the estimated costs in the memorandum to be reasonable and the bill to be broadly cost neutral. I welcome the acknowledgment across many responses, including from those who are more critical of the financial memorandum and of the proposal for assisted dying, that attempting to estimate costs in this area is extremely challenging and complex, because of a lack of meaningful data and/or precedent in many of the relevant areas. I noted the issues that were raised in other responses, such as the suggestion that the case numbers are underestimated. I acknowledge that different assumptions can be made and methodologies used that would result in different estimates. Depending on which assumptions are made, one could estimate the cost to be higher than the memorandum does, or indeed to be lower. Frankly, none of us knows exactly how many people might wish to begin the process and how many might go on to be provided with assistance, and one could make a range of different but incompatible estimates. I am satisfied, however, that the assumptions that are made and the methodology that is used in the memorandum are evidence based, that they reflect a justified midpoint of the extremes of opinion and that they provide a reasonable estimate of likely numbers. I also note the comments that the potential costs associated with areas such as training and the provision of support or guidance have been underestimated or excluded. I accept that some organisations and individuals have different thoughts on some of the issues. However, the estimates that are set out in the financial memorandum are based on available evidence, practice and expectations. In relation to the comments about potential savings, I reiterate that, although some savings are likely, saving money is not and never has been a policy aim of the legislation. The bill is about giving terminally ill adults a choice to end their own life if they wish to and are eligible to do so, not to save money. Thank you for your patience, convener. I look forward to answering questions from you and committee members.

In the same item of business

The Convener SNP
The next agenda item is to take evidence on the financial memorandum for the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill from Liam McArthur, who...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Thank you, convener, and good morning. Before I begin my statement, it will be helpful if I declare some relevant interests. I receive funding for an additio...
The Convener SNP
Thank you for that helpful opening statement. This is an emotive issue, and I know that colleagues around the table spent a lot of time deliberating over the...
Liam McArthur LD
I respond by saying that the proposals lean heavily on clinician judgment. At the moment, we trust clinicians to make a range of decisions, including those a...
The Convener SNP
Conversely, in its submission, the Scottish Partnership for Palliative Care said: “Although assisted dying may lead to some savings ... it is important to r...
Liam McArthur LD
I have a lot of sympathy for that point. To give a personal example, I was heavily involved in the campaign for the Balfour hospital in Kirkwall to get a CT ...
The Convener SNP
Having flexibility in the system is important. I remember a similar circumstance a decade or more ago when I was trying to get a dialysis machine for Arran f...
Liam McArthur LD
I go back to what I said in my opening statement: I do not think that anybody knows. We can draw on the evidence from elsewhere, from which you can quite con...
The Convener SNP
I do not think that awareness is going to be an issue, to be honest—it is going to be very high. I note that, in the legislation that you are proposing, the...
Liam McArthur LD
Obviously, the numbers are driven by requests for assisted dying. It is worth pointing out that requests do not necessarily always result in people taking th...
The Convener SNP
Okay. I am sure that others will touch on the numbers, but the financial memorandum’s estimate of 50 to 100 people by year 3, compared with 300 people in six...
Liam McArthur LD
I acknowledge that the figures in relation to 90 per cent of people dying at home reflect over the final six months of life, as opposed to the location in wh...
The Convener SNP
There might be a shift if, indeed, there is not “a duty on NHS boards to provide AD”. We could have a situation, one imagines, where one or two boards coul...
Liam McArthur LD
As I said before, the bill does not place a duty on anybody to provide the service. There is a robust conscientious objection provision in the proposed legis...
The Convener SNP
Children’s Hospices Across Scotland has raised similar concerns. The Scottish Partnership for Palliative Care also said that “the Bill makes no provision f...
Liam McArthur LD
There are provisions in the financial memorandum for oversight, and not just of individuals. I would expect that to be a requirement of how organisations are...
The Convener SNP
I think that that is taken on board. From our perspective, the issue is just that no cost has been identified. I will ask only one more question at this poi...
Liam McArthur LD
The Dutch system operates very differently from the systems in Victoria and in Oregon, which are terminal illness mental capacity jurisdictions. That said, I...
The Convener SNP
I have a few more questions to ask, but I want to open up the session to colleagues around the table.
Liz Smith Con
Good morning, Mr McArthur. I will follow on from the question about support, particularly in relation to the voice of young people, following on from some of...
Liam McArthur LD
The question allows me to put on the public record, for the first time, my gratitude to CHAS. It has responded to the committee’s call for evidence, as it ha...
Liz Smith Con
I, too, put on record my utter admiration for CHAS, which is a wonderful group that does extraordinary work. Inherent in its submission is a concern that the...
Liam McArthur LD
Pulling together a financial memorandum of this type is difficult—not only is it unprecedented, but the data and precedent that you would normally rely on in...
Liz Smith Con
Do you foresee any circumstances where opportunity costs will come into play? Some staff, especially experienced staff, may have to be taken away from treati...
Liam McArthur LD
I would certainly acknowledge that. Training will be crucial, but we are not reinventing the wheel here, as many of the materials and whatnot exist in other ...
Liz Smith Con
Thank you.
Michael Marra Lab
I want to start with the issue of the comparators that you selected, which has been partly covered. Why did you choose to base the numbers more on what has h...
Liam McArthur LD
I chose to use Oregon and Victoria—in other words, I used two comparators. There are various differences in how healthcare is delivered in the US and how it ...
Michael Marra Lab
Does the Australian system not represent a better comparator for Scotland than the system in the US?
Liam McArthur LD
If I had relied solely on Australia, that would have been justified in informing our approach here in the UK, or indeed in Scotland, where health is devolved...