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Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

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1999–2026
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Showing 60 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Committee
17 Dec 2024
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
Thank you, convener, and good morning. Before I begin my statement, it will be helpful if I declare some relevant interests. I receive funding for an additional member of staff from three permissible donors—Friends at the End, Dignity in Dying and the Humanist Society Scotland...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 May 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for that intervention. I do not think that that is the case. Polling consistently shows support, not only in the population at large but across the disability community. That is not to say that there is not a very real need to open up that discussion ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
25 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I thank both Ross Greer and Miles Briggs for very thoughtfully setting out the thinking behind their amendments. I found myself nodding along to much of what they had to say. I may turn to their amendments after addressing my own. My amendments 44 and 44A would require the ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
25 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I understand the point that Pam Duncan-Glancy has made, which is why I am supportive of the assessments being carried out. However, the assessments will not necessarily speak to the specific circumstances of any individual who is going through the process. As I have said, it i...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
11 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
As Paul O’Kane and I discussed in exchanges yesterday, I admit at this stage that in the bill as introduced to the Parliament, one of the obvious omissions was that of recognising the importance of the involvement of social work and social care in the assessments that would be...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
01 Dec 2015
Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I start with a couple of apologies. The first is for the length of my remarks, which is a reflection of the complexity of the issues in the group as well as the number of amendments. Secondly, despite the number of amendments, I acknowledge that, should the general principles ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
13 May 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Almost four years since I announced my intention to introduce a bill to allow terminally ill, competent adults the choice of an assisted death, Parliament finally has the opportunity to debate and vote on the general principles of that bill. I confess that I do not recall havi...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
11 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I will certainly turn to that in speaking to the amendments that touch on those points—which, if memory serves, are amendments that Stephen Kerr himself has lodged. In answer to his question, though, I would expect the medical professionals to exercise their judgment and use t...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
14 Jan 2014
Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I am very pleased to see the changes that the Scottish Government is proposing for the provision of aftercare to those who have been through the care system. Although I was happy to welcome the original proposals in the bill, it was clear at that stage that a number of importa...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
19 Feb 2014
Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I start by paying tribute to Siobhan McMahon not only for the amendments in this group but for those in earlier groups and for the work that she did at stage 2 to bring issues to the attention of the committee. Like her, I have been concerned about some of the problems that ca...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
01 Apr 2015
Autism
On the eve of world autism awareness day I, too, congratulate Mark McDonald on securing the debate. I know that, as a result of a football injury, he is rapidly gaining what I hope is a temporary insight into physical access issues. As other members have said, he has shown a c...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
02 Feb 2016
Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I will be as brief as I can be, notwithstanding the complexity of the issues and the importance of the underlying principles in the amendments in this group. As at stage 2, my amendments are backed by a wide coalition of experts in the field, to whom I am extremely grateful. ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Committee
07 Jan 2020
Children (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I turn to confidentiality of information. I know that Children 1st, among others, has expressed concerns about that. The Scottish Government consulted in 2018 on a legislative provision and asked whether confidential information should be made available to a litigant who is as...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I do not happen to agree with that. As I go through and respond to the amendments, the rationale for that might become clearer. Amendments 143 and 144 offer alternative options. The former suggests a prognosis period of three months. As well as my general concerns about sett...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The difficulty is in making eligibility contingent on a person having a care plan in place or having access to social care or palliative care. Ultimately, that needs to be a decision for the individual. Regarding Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendment 227, I support people with a term...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I will turn to Claire Baker’s amendments shortly. I fully understand her point. It is problematic in that it could open up the prospect of raising the age at which we allow a whole host of things to happen and for capacity to be assumed in young adults, to a level that I think...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
A point has been made by Claire Baker, and Sandesh Gulhane has also made his point. I support the age being raised to 18 and urge the committee to do likewise. On the age threshold that Claire Baker proposes, which was pre-empted by Daniel Johnson’s earlier intervention, I am...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I am afraid that I am going to proceed, Mr Balfour. The Scottish Government has identified potential legislative competence issues. I am aware that the Scottish Government is working with the United Kingdom Government to ensure the full operation of the bill, should it be pas...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I start by thanking Murdo Fraser for setting out the rationale for his amendments in this group, and for his declaration of interest, which I take in good faith. The bill requires the signing of a first and second declaration form by a terminally ill adult to be witnessed and...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Committee
11 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Good morning. I start with a declaration of interests and remind the committee that I receive support from three separate campaign organisations—Dignity in Dying, Friends at the End and the Humanist Society Scotland—that have helped in supporting the costs of a website during ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
11 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Thank you, convener. I start with an apology that my remarks are, again, going to be on the lengthy side. Again, it is a reflection of the fact that I want to do justice to the amendments in the group. I thank Miles Briggs for helpfully setting out the rationale for his amendm...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
18 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I thank Patrick Harvie for setting out the rationale for the amendments and wish Ross Greer a speedy recovery—he is lined up to speak in a few debates this week. It is fair to say that I fully support folk being available to help people to understand and navigate the process....
Liam McArthur LD Committee
18 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
That is a very fair point to raise. It has not been raised with me either in the context of the bill as introduced or in relation to the additional safeguard that I seek to introduce through amendment 33. I am prepared to engage with other members and representatives of the me...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
18 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
As I have said, I know from my direct engagement with the RCN how strongly it feels about the issue. I do have misgivings. Members of the committee will have heard expositions of both sides of the argument, and the points that Emma Harper was—fairly—making. The committee will ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Committee
25 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I begin where I concluded at the last meeting by reminding the committee of my declaration of interests. I am supported by Dignity in Dying Scotland, Friends at the End, and the Humanist Society Scotland. With regard to Jackie Baillie’s amendments 54, 55, 57, 64 and 61, I wis...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
25 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I had a lengthy exchange with the Finance and Public Administration Committee on my financial memorandum about my understanding of costs. I know that the Government has taken a different view, and it is for the Government to explain its rationale. Paul Sweeney’s amendment 269...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
18 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
It is a fair point. In my engagement with the RCN, it has made requests, which I have been happy and able to accede to. I think that the requirement for a second nurse to be present is disproportionate. There is nothing in the bill that would prevent that from happening, and I...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
11 Nov 2025
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I appreciate Mr Doris’s point. If additional information could usefully be added to the process, I am happy to consider it. In relation to schedule 2, a practitioner would already need to be satisfied that quite a lot of details had been met before those forms were signed. St...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
17 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill
I understand Daniel Johnson’s point. I worked closely with the British Medical Association on the amendments that I lodged after stage 1 to provide reassurance on the section 104 order.On the point about guidance, any guidance or secondary legislation will have to be taken for...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
13 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
That is a helpful clarification from the cabinet secretary. He may want to develop that argument in his remarks later on. I will certainly reflect on that, as I am sure colleagues across the chamber will.I turn to Audrey Nicoll’s amendments 275, 276 and 277, which all seek to ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
13 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I begin in customary fashion by reminding members of my entry in the register of members’ interests in relation to the support that I receive from three separate campaign organisations in the context of the bill. I also reflect that there might be other members who have partic...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
11 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am conscious of your comments earlier about the need to eat into colleagues’ Fridays. I offer an apology as, again, my contribution on this group will be lengthy, given the number of amendments in it. I will try to be as brief as I can.In that s...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
10 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I am grateful to Mr Whitfield for that very welcome point.I strongly urge members to vote for the amendments in my name, without which, as mentioned, the Scotland Act 1988 order process cannot take place.On that basis, I cannot support, and urge members not to support, Pauline...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
10 Mar 2026
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I entirely agree with Mr Whittle. That is already reflected in the bill to a large extent, but other amendments that I will come on to discuss capture the point that he entirely fairly makes.Section 7(1) of the bill requires the assessing doctor to“explain to and discuss with ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
13 Sep 2011
Creative Scotland
I appreciate that it is not an either/or situation, but that approach tends to suggest that your interventions are most successful when they can extend and deepen the cultural experience of those who already have some level of contact with culture and the arts, rather than in ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
11 Sep 2012
Cultural Participation
Good morning. The latest Scottish household survey suggests that almost nine in 10 adults have participated in cultural activity or attended a cultural event over the past year. Although on one level the figure is impressive, it has not changed markedly in the past four or fiv...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
18 Sep 2012
Social Care (Self-directed Support) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I, too, congratulate Duncan McNeil and his colleagues on the Health and Sport Committee on the production of a very thorough report. I am also happy to confirm the Liberal Democrats’ support for the bill. As others do, we think that it is overdue, but it certainly represents a...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
15 Jan 2013
Taking Children into Care Inquiry
Barbara Reid mentioned the need for greater consistency in the availability of an advocate for the child, but I am certainly aware of instances in which adults themselves have needed not necessarily a legal representative but an advocate to provide pastoral support, moral supp...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
20 Mar 2013
Portfolio Question Time · Dentists (NHS Orkney)
6. To ask the Scottish Government how many adults in the NHS Orkney area are on a waiting list to be registered with a national health service dentist. (S4O-01930)
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
20 Mar 2013
Portfolio Question Time · Dentists (NHS Orkney)
I thank the minister for his engagement on the issue over a number of months, and I certainly welcome the progress that has been made over recent times, but I am sure that the minister will acknowledge that adult registrations with an NHS dentist and participation rates in Ork...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
21 May 2013
Public Science Engagement Initiatives
Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate. Despite the copious amounts of time available, there are probably innumerable issues that I will not have time to cover. A number of members have been right to focus on one of those...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
13 Jun 2013
Scottish Guardianship Service
It might be a little presumptuous of us to claim that the debate is a highlight of—or rather, the perfect launch for—refugee week Scotland 2013. Amid an array of what I understand will be more than 100 arts and cultural events in different parts of the country that will celebr...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
04 Mar 2014
My World of Work
I will come to SDS in a second. To what extent, rather than adults explaining to young people what is available, do you use peer exemplars to explain the benefits that they have got out of that process in a way that seems more relevant and accessible to the young people?
Liam McArthur LD Committee
12 Aug 2014
Taking Children into Care Inquiry
Is there not a risk with expectation management? Intuitively, a child-centred approach would appear to be labour and time intensive. You have talked about trusted adults and mentoring. We also have to consider the data collection to which Neil Bibby referred, the convener’s re...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
01 Nov 2012
Organ Donation (Presumed Consent)
It is not often that it can be said, particularly at this time on a Thursday, that Parliament is showing itself at its best, but that has very much been the case in this debate. I join other members in congratulating Kenny Gibson on a compelling speech, and on pursuing the mot...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
01 Dec 2015
Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There might be some debate to be had about the language of the amendments, and I would be more than happy to engage in that process between now and stage 3. However, if we start from the presumption that we want a bill that honestly and demonstrably reflects the child rights p...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
01 Dec 2015
Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I am conscious that I have probably used up my speaking quota for stage 2 in this session, but I will return to something that I touched on in relation to an earlier grouping. In making the case for the removal of the capacity and best interest assessment, I wholly accept tha...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
23 Feb 2016
BBC Charter Renewal
As I have family members who are current and former BBC employees, I start by declaring an interest. I am acutely aware that the institution has its shortcomings, but it is commendably honest about them—more so than most, perhaps. At the same time, it is an institution for wh...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
02 Feb 2016
Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
I thank Iain Gray for his support. He rightly points to the coalition of experts in the field who have been supportive of the amendments and who have raised the issues since stage 1—the Children and Young People’s Commissioner and the Scottish Human Rights Commission, as well ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
20 Apr 2017
Police Scotland and the Scottish Police Authority (Financial Planning)
I take issue with Calum Steele’s comment—which Craig Suttie touched on—that the public know what we do because they ask us to do it. One of the concerns that I hear at a local level, and which is reflected nationwide, is about the amount of officer time that is taken up with m...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
13 Jun 2017
Human Trafficking and Exploitation
Some excellent speeches have been made. I congratulate Kate Forbes on a speech that was extremely powerful and unsettling in all the right ways. The Scottish Liberal Democrats were strong supporters of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Scotland) Act 2015, which has prov...
Liam McArthur LD Chamber
07 Dec 2017
Brain Tumour Awareness
That was helpful—it is encouraging to know that. The underlying problem is that not enough is known about brain tumours. Only 1 per cent of cancer research funding is spent in this area and, in real terms, the amount that is spent has gone down rather than up. That is tragic ...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
13 Jun 2018
Mental Health
Scottish Liberal Democrats have, over the years, consistently sought to keep the spotlight on mental health. We have repeatedly used the time that is available to us in the chamber to highlight concerns that, I am sure, we all share about lack of progress, and to demand from m...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
03 Oct 2018
Age Scotland (75th Anniversary)
Presiding Officer, that motion without notice was timely, because I should start with an apology to you and the chamber, in that I may need to leave before the end of the debate as I am due to host an event on behalf of Heriot-Watt University. By way of atonement, I extend a c...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Chamber
24 Apr 2019
Portfolio Question Time · Power of Attorney
Back in 2017, I wrote to the minister’s predecessor on concerns that had been raised with me about the restrictions on who can sign applications for power of attorney. At that stage, Annabelle Ewing confirmed that consultation on changes to adults with incapacity legislation w...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
17 Dec 2019
Children (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As I listen to the discussions about how the child or young person’s voice is heard, it occurs to me, from my experience of bringing up my own children, that as well as listening to what they say, we need to manage their expectations about what is realistic. That is not unique...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
07 Jan 2020
Children (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
You will have heard the earlier exchange on the confidentiality of information. We have also discussed the sensitivity of such information and the balance, which Professor Sutherland talked about in an earlier session, that exists between adults’ ECHR rights to fair trial and ...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
28 Jan 2020
Children (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The Government consulted on whether the bill should include provisions on confidential children’s information being provided subject to the views of the child having been considered and to that having been deemed to be in the child’s best interests. Children 1st is particularl...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD Committee
20 Feb 2020
Children (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I will stick with the sharing of information. The Scottish Government originally consulted on potential legal provisions for the sharing of confidential information where that was seen to be in the best interests of the child and where the child had an opportunity to express a...
Liam McArthur LD Committee
28 Jan 2020
Children (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
That is helpful. Children 1st was trying to reflect the distinction between interviews with children in the context of court proceedings and, I suspect, mediation and—as often happens—children’s engagement with services at a much earlier stage in the process. Files of informat...
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Committee

Finance and Public Administration Committee 17 December 2024

17 Dec 2024 · S6 · Finance and Public Administration Committee
Item of business
Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
Thank you, convener, and good morning. Before I begin my statement, it will be helpful if I declare some relevant interests. I receive funding for an additional member of staff from three permissible donors—Friends at the End, Dignity in Dying and the Humanist Society Scotland—and the support is currently for a staff member one day per week. The Humanist Society Scotland also funds the development and maintenance costs of the domain and the hosting of a website that I use to publish materials relating to the bill—that was, ostensibly, prior to the formal introduction of the bill. Dignity in Dying paid the costs that were associated with my visit to California as part of a cross-party delegation of MSPs that met various organisations and individuals in relation to the state’s End of Life Option Act, and I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests for more details on that. Members will be aware that I formally introduced the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill in Parliament in March this year, following the usual members’ bills process, with the support of the non-Government bills unit. The bill aims to allow mentally competent terminally ill eligible adults in Scotland to voluntarily choose to be provided with assistance by health professionals to end their own lives. The approach that I have taken in the bill and related accompanying documents is purposefully quite different from that taken in previous proposals and bills on the issue that the Scottish Parliament has considered. The approach and the estimated number of people who may request assistance reflect the bill’s provisions and the form of assisted dying. In effect, I am legislating to allow a relatively small cohort of people who request assistance to end their own lives to be provided with such assistance. There have been suggestions that the numbers involved and, likewise, the costs will be higher than anticipated. However, the jurisdictions where numbers are significantly higher either do not have comparable legislation to the bill that I have introduced or have notably different circumstances from those in Scotland, and the financial memorandum reflects that. My intention from the outset was to introduce a bill that would make it legally possible for terminally ill adults, if assessed as eligible, to be provided by willing health professionals with assistance to end their own lives. I wanted a bill that detailed, as far as possible and within the Scottish Parliament’s competence, the process that is involved before, during and after. The financial memorandum reflects the approach that is taken, the bill’s provisions and the limitations that the accompanying documents acknowledge. To be eligible, a person must be terminally ill, aged 16 or over, have been a resident in Scotland for at least 12 continuous months, be registered with a GP in Scotland and have the mental capacity to make the request. A person must have had health and social care information and options—for example, about palliative and hospice care—and information about assisted dying explained to them prior to making a final decision. A person must also make the decision of their own free will, without coercion or pressure, to the reasonable satisfaction of healthcare professionals. 11:15 The bill will establish a lawful process for an eligible person to access assisted dying that I believe to be safe, controlled and transparent. The process broadly involves a person stating that they wish to be provided with assistance to end their own life and being assessed for eligibility by two doctors, acting independently of each other. If assessed as eligible, a person can give a further indication that they wish to continue and then be provided, at a time of their choosing, with the substance for self-administration to end their own life. I believe that that will give people a choice and enable them to avoid the existential pain, suffering and symptoms that can be associated with terminal illness. In turn, it will afford them autonomy, dignity and control over the end of life. The bill will make it lawful for a person to voluntarily access dying if they meet the criteria as set out in the bill and for willing health professionals to assist in that process, while continuing to ensure that assisting death outwith the bill’s provisions remains unlawful. The bill also provides that no one is compelled to participate directly in the process if they have a conscientious objection to doing so. The provisions ensure that relevant data and information is collected, processed and published in annual reports to aid transparency and understanding. In addition, there will be a requirement for the legislation to be reviewed after five years. That will afford the Scottish Parliament, health and care professions and wider society an opportunity to take stock of the practical experience of assisted dying. The financial memorandum—for the first time with any piece of proposed legislation on this subject in the UK—attempts to estimate the costs and savings that would be associated with implementation and the impacts of such legislation as far as it was felt reasonably possible to do so. That was done in the absence of any precedent for similar enacted legislation in the UK, and with often very little relevant or meaningful data—or, in some cases, none. The approach that is taken in the financial memorandum is based on an estimation of the potential annual number of people who will request an assisted death and the number of people who will go on to self-administer a substance and end their own life. Estimates are provided for the first year in which assisted dying will be available, and the financial memorandum projects the figures over 20 years. Comparable data from Oregon in the US and Victoria in Australia was used to inform those estimates. On the basis of the assumptions and methodologies used in any available meaningful data, estimates for possible costs to the Scottish Administration and for health and care services in Scotland are provided. The memorandum acknowledges that the legislation is likely to result in savings as well as costs, and that, broadly speaking, it is expected to be cost neutral. That is because a cost is associated with the processes that are involved in a person being assessed and potentially provided with assistance to end their own life, such as clinical and associated administration costs, and because there is a commensurate cost saving from a person no longer receiving care for however long they might have lived. International evidence indicates that case numbers are likely to rise annually, certainly in the initial years of assisted dying being available. Therefore, to give an indication of how rising case numbers could affect costs and savings, the memorandum gives estimated figures for year 1 and then on-going costs until year 20. Following the publication of the memorandum, it came to my attention that table 3, which sets out estimated costs to health services, and table 4, which sets out estimated overall costs, conflated some of the year 1 and on-going costs and year 20 estimated costs. I subsequently wrote on 17 June to this committee, as well as to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, to amend and present some of those costs more accurately and clearly. I wrote again to both committees on 14 October to note two other minor discrepancies. The net effect of the issues that are noted in those letters is that the upper-end total estimated costs of the bill are £4,036 higher than those that are estimated in the financial memorandum. Although they are relatively minor, I extend an apology again to the committee for those errors. I read with interest the 22 responses that you received to your call for views, and I thank all of those who took the time to respond. I note that NHS Fife, which was the only health board to respond, considered the estimated costs in the memorandum to be reasonable and the bill to be broadly cost neutral. I welcome the acknowledgment across many responses, including from those who are more critical of the financial memorandum and of the proposal for assisted dying, that attempting to estimate costs in this area is extremely challenging and complex, because of a lack of meaningful data and/or precedent in many of the relevant areas. I noted the issues that were raised in other responses, such as the suggestion that the case numbers are underestimated. I acknowledge that different assumptions can be made and methodologies used that would result in different estimates. Depending on which assumptions are made, one could estimate the cost to be higher than the memorandum does, or indeed to be lower. Frankly, none of us knows exactly how many people might wish to begin the process and how many might go on to be provided with assistance, and one could make a range of different but incompatible estimates. I am satisfied, however, that the assumptions that are made and the methodology that is used in the memorandum are evidence based, that they reflect a justified midpoint of the extremes of opinion and that they provide a reasonable estimate of likely numbers. I also note the comments that the potential costs associated with areas such as training and the provision of support or guidance have been underestimated or excluded. I accept that some organisations and individuals have different thoughts on some of the issues. However, the estimates that are set out in the financial memorandum are based on available evidence, practice and expectations. In relation to the comments about potential savings, I reiterate that, although some savings are likely, saving money is not and never has been a policy aim of the legislation. The bill is about giving terminally ill adults a choice to end their own life if they wish to and are eligible to do so, not to save money. Thank you for your patience, convener. I look forward to answering questions from you and committee members.

In the same item of business

The Convener SNP
The next agenda item is to take evidence on the financial memorandum for the Assisted Dying for Terminally Ill Adults (Scotland) Bill from Liam McArthur, who...
Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) LD
Thank you, convener, and good morning. Before I begin my statement, it will be helpful if I declare some relevant interests. I receive funding for an additio...
The Convener SNP
Thank you for that helpful opening statement. This is an emotive issue, and I know that colleagues around the table spent a lot of time deliberating over the...
Liam McArthur LD
I respond by saying that the proposals lean heavily on clinician judgment. At the moment, we trust clinicians to make a range of decisions, including those a...
The Convener SNP
Conversely, in its submission, the Scottish Partnership for Palliative Care said: “Although assisted dying may lead to some savings ... it is important to r...
Liam McArthur LD
I have a lot of sympathy for that point. To give a personal example, I was heavily involved in the campaign for the Balfour hospital in Kirkwall to get a CT ...
The Convener SNP
Having flexibility in the system is important. I remember a similar circumstance a decade or more ago when I was trying to get a dialysis machine for Arran f...
Liam McArthur LD
I go back to what I said in my opening statement: I do not think that anybody knows. We can draw on the evidence from elsewhere, from which you can quite con...
The Convener SNP
I do not think that awareness is going to be an issue, to be honest—it is going to be very high. I note that, in the legislation that you are proposing, the...
Liam McArthur LD
Obviously, the numbers are driven by requests for assisted dying. It is worth pointing out that requests do not necessarily always result in people taking th...
The Convener SNP
Okay. I am sure that others will touch on the numbers, but the financial memorandum’s estimate of 50 to 100 people by year 3, compared with 300 people in six...
Liam McArthur LD
I acknowledge that the figures in relation to 90 per cent of people dying at home reflect over the final six months of life, as opposed to the location in wh...
The Convener SNP
There might be a shift if, indeed, there is not “a duty on NHS boards to provide AD”. We could have a situation, one imagines, where one or two boards coul...
Liam McArthur LD
As I said before, the bill does not place a duty on anybody to provide the service. There is a robust conscientious objection provision in the proposed legis...
The Convener SNP
Children’s Hospices Across Scotland has raised similar concerns. The Scottish Partnership for Palliative Care also said that “the Bill makes no provision f...
Liam McArthur LD
There are provisions in the financial memorandum for oversight, and not just of individuals. I would expect that to be a requirement of how organisations are...
The Convener SNP
I think that that is taken on board. From our perspective, the issue is just that no cost has been identified. I will ask only one more question at this poi...
Liam McArthur LD
The Dutch system operates very differently from the systems in Victoria and in Oregon, which are terminal illness mental capacity jurisdictions. That said, I...
The Convener SNP
I have a few more questions to ask, but I want to open up the session to colleagues around the table.
Liz Smith Con
Good morning, Mr McArthur. I will follow on from the question about support, particularly in relation to the voice of young people, following on from some of...
Liam McArthur LD
The question allows me to put on the public record, for the first time, my gratitude to CHAS. It has responded to the committee’s call for evidence, as it ha...
Liz Smith Con
I, too, put on record my utter admiration for CHAS, which is a wonderful group that does extraordinary work. Inherent in its submission is a concern that the...
Liam McArthur LD
Pulling together a financial memorandum of this type is difficult—not only is it unprecedented, but the data and precedent that you would normally rely on in...
Liz Smith Con
Do you foresee any circumstances where opportunity costs will come into play? Some staff, especially experienced staff, may have to be taken away from treati...
Liam McArthur LD
I would certainly acknowledge that. Training will be crucial, but we are not reinventing the wheel here, as many of the materials and whatnot exist in other ...
Liz Smith Con
Thank you.
Michael Marra Lab
I want to start with the issue of the comparators that you selected, which has been partly covered. Why did you choose to base the numbers more on what has h...
Liam McArthur LD
I chose to use Oregon and Victoria—in other words, I used two comparators. There are various differences in how healthcare is delivered in the US and how it ...
Michael Marra Lab
Does the Australian system not represent a better comparator for Scotland than the system in the US?
Liam McArthur LD
If I had relied solely on Australia, that would have been justified in informing our approach here in the UK, or indeed in Scotland, where health is devolved...