Committee
Social Justice and Social Security Committee 26 September 2024
26 Sep 2024 · S6 · Social Justice and Social Security Committee
Item of business
Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Amendments 92 to 94 bring within the scope of SCOSS’s formal scrutiny remit regulation-making powers on care experience assistance, appointees, assistance given in error and information for audit. The bill as introduced sought to implement the findings of the Glen Shuraig Consulting review and bring specific additional regulations into SCOSS’s formal scope. At that point, the regulations that were being brought into scope did not include those for care experience assistance, compensation recovery, information for audit, appointees or assistance given in error, as those were not under consideration at the time of the review. As the committee heard during stage 1, there were calls from stakeholders for all the new regulation-making powers in the bill to be subject to formal scrutiny by SCOSS. Following that evidence, the board of SCOSS wrote to me in April 2024, noting that it welcomed additional scrutiny of some—rather than all—of the regulations that were made possible by the bill. Amendments 92 to 94, in my name, therefore add to the existing list of regulation-making powers that are captured under section 97 of the 2018 act, in accordance with those exchanges with the board of SCOSS—Interruption. Excuse me, convener. Clearly, I am allergic to stage 2 proceedings after a certain amount of time. I urge the committee to support those amendments. We have seen how SCOSS scrutiny adds value to the development of regulations, and I have no doubt that its scrutiny of regulations on the added topics will similarly make an important contribution. Amendments 95 and 96 simply ensure that section 97 of the 2018 act, on formal scrutiny by SCOSS, applies to regulations whether they are subject to the affirmative or the negative procedure. Amendment 97 ensures that SCOSS is aligned with similar public bodies in its duties to publish an annual report. The Glen Shuraig review noted that the 2018 act’s relatively onerous statutory duty on the commission to prepare accounts and submit those for external audit should be removed. Amendment 97 replaces it with a more proportionate requirement to prepare an annual report that must be submitted to ministers and laid before the Parliament. The SCOSS board has welcomed that amendment. Amendment 11, in Jeremy Balfour’s name, would expand SCOSS scrutiny to primary social security legislation as well as a broader range of secondary legislation. The Government cannot support that. The Scottish Government is already bringing the majority of the regulation-making powers in the 2018 act within the scope of scrutiny by SCOSS. That aligns with the recommendations of the independent review, which recommended a focus on areas that can have an impact on clients. The widening of the scope that is proposed in amendment 11 would both undercut that policy objective and create unclear resource implications for SCOSS. The Government also has concerns about how the provisions on the scrutiny of primary legislation would work in some contexts—for example, if emergency legislation is required, there might not be sufficient time. It is also important to highlight that the functions of SCOSS under the 2018 act are already wide ranging, and relate not only to the scrutiny of legislative proposals; SCOSS can, when requested, prepare and submit to the Scottish ministers and the Parliament advice on any matter relevant to social security and report on whether expectations as set out in the Scottish social security charter are being fulfilled, as well as make any recommendations for improvement. According to its most recent annual report, the commission has progressed work in that area, and I believe that it would be useful for the committee to consider those existing functions rather than create entirely new statutory functions, given that those that are available to the Parliament have been used so little. I move amendment 92.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Collette Stevenson)
SNP
Good morning and welcome to the 25th meeting in 2024 of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. The first item of business is the committee’s consi...
The Convener
SNP
We now move to consideration of the amendments and start with the grouping on appointees and representatives. Amendment 52, in the name of the cabinet secre...
The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice (Shirley-Anne Somerville)
SNP
Good morning, convener. The Scottish Government’s amendments 52 and 53 are technical changes to clarify that an individual’s eligibility to receive assistanc...
The Convener
SNP
I invite Jeremy Balfour to speak to amendment 126, and other amendments in the group.
Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con)
Con
I am fully supportive of the Government’s amendments and will vote for them. I think that there has been some confusion around amendment 9, from some of the...
Paul O’Kane (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
We are supportive of the Government’s amendments in this group. I will turn briefly to Mr Balfour’s two amendments. I recognise some of what the cabinet sec...
The Convener
SNP
As nobody else would like to come in, I invite the cabinet secretary to wind up.
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
I will respond to some of the points that Mr Balfour and Mr O’Kane made on the authority of Social Security Scotland to make the decisions in relation to chi...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
SNP
I am supportive of the position that you outline, cabinet secretary, but I am also conscious that Mr Balfour suggested a scenario in which the individual wan...
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
I would not suggest provision in the bill. As I said, on those issues, it is important that we are able to be much more flexible than we would be able to be ...
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 126 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Against Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Doris...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 6, Abstentions 0. Amendment 126 disagreed to. Amendment 9 moved—Jeremy Balfour.
The Convener
SNP
The question is, that amendment 9 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division. For Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 4, Abstentions 0. Because the result is a tie, I must exercise a casting vote. My vote is against the amendmen...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 57, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 10, 58, 99 and 103.
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
Before I speak to the individual amendments in the group, it might be helpful to offer some context on the development of the provisions and the rationale th...
The Convener
SNP
I invite Jeremy Balfour to speak to amendment 10 and other amendments in the group.
Jeremy Balfour
Con
It would be fair to say that, of all the areas that we looked at during stage 1, this was probably the most controversial and perhaps the hardest for us to c...
Shirley-Anne Somerville
SNP
I hear where Mr Balfour is coming from. Can he perhaps try to persuade me that we can audit Social Security Scotland and the way in which it does things with...
Jeremy Balfour
Con
You took the words right out of my mouth, cabinet secretary—here is my persuasive argument. Can you imagine the Royal Bank of Scotland, the Bank of Scotland ...
The Convener
SNP
I call Maggie Chapman to speak to amendment 58 and other amendments in the group.
Maggie Chapman (North East Scotland) (Green)
Green
Thank you. Good morning, everyone. I thank the cabinet secretary for the conversations that we have had about the bill in the run-up to stage 2. I will be s...
The Convener
SNP
Before I invite others to speak, I remind members that they should try to be as concise as possible and, where possible, not to repeat themselves, although I...
Bob Doris
SNP
No pressure on me to be concise then, convener. I appreciate your proactive chastisement of my remarks. I believe that Jeremy Balfour has made incredibly we...
Jeremy Balfour
Con
Are you comfortable with someone who has been awarded a benefit and whose circumstances have not changed being sanctioned simply because they have not return...
Bob Doris
SNP
I will come on to that later in my contribution, but I refute the way in which Mr Balfour has framed his question to me. I will say more about that a little ...
Jeremy Balfour
Con
Does Social Security Scotland not already have that power under section 52 of the 2018 act? Why do we need an additional power?
Bob Doris
SNP
I am happy to take more interventions from Mr Balfour, but I suggest that, if he waits a wee bitty, he will see that I am going to come on to all of that. I ...