Chamber
Plenary, 12 Jan 2006
12 Jan 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Local Government Finance
To a greater or lesser extent, each of the Opposition parties in the debate claims that it wants enough money for local councils, partially or wholly funded by a new and more popular type of local taxation. I have news for them: there is never enough money and people never like paying taxes. Those are just two of the lessons that I have learned during years of trying to make sense of the byzantine complexity of local government finance.
For me, the learning curve has been steep and long. Alas, like some here I could mention, I cannot claim to have run away from the circus as a boy to join a firm of chartered accountants. On being elected to Strathclyde Regional Council in 1987, I found finance dry and boring. I found service issues such as transport and education to be sexier. When I became Strathclyde's transport convener in 1994, it was quite a shock to have to fight to retain my £0.5 billion budget in a tough, competitive, corporate budget round. The first lesson that I learned was that all services, sexy or otherwise, have to be paid for from a balanced budget.
However, I suspect that most politicians do not like to talk about finance. Many do not like to think about it and too many still do not understand it. I know that I did not feel confident in 1997 as deputy leader of Glasgow City Council, when my leader, Frank McAveety, asked me to take control of Glasgow's £2 billion budget. I sent for the director of finance—the legendary Jimmy Andrews, who gave 50 years of service to Glasgow. I pointed at a pile of budget papers on my desk that was too heavy to lift and I asked a technical question: "Jimmy, what's the answer to this dead hard sum?" "What answer would you like, councillor?" he replied. I felt a great weight lift from my shoulders. I was not alone. Budgeting was not a science, but an art. That was another lesson learned.
Years ago in the United States of America, a persistent bank robber was serving his last and longest jail term when he was visited by a young sociologist—I see that Des McNulty has left, which is a pity because he is a sociologist—for a research interview. The first question was, "Why do you rob banks?" The answer came, "Because that is where the money is."
Behind such obscure jargon as aggregate external finance and revenue support grant, it is all about money. That is a fact for me and every other member, for councils, for the Executive and for the Government. If we had more money, we could do more things with it. If the money is under the control of elected councillors, they are directly accountable to their electorate for the services they specify and the taxes that they levy.
John Swinney's motion calls for the national taxpayers of Scotland to give an extra £93.2 million to local councils on the condition that there is a real-terms freeze in council tax. Let us leave to one side the plain fact that to the man on the Sauchiehall Street omnibus, a council tax freeze means a zero increase, which the SNP's obfuscation would not deliver. Let us explore the SNP's condition or, as it is called in the jargon, ring fencing. Imposing that condition is wrong in practice because it removes the choices that having more money could bring to councils. It is also wrong in principle because it usurps the role of elected councillors. Perhaps John Swinney is a centraliser by inclination; it is a species that is represented in every part of the chamber after all. If so, I wonder what he would do if councillors used the cash for other things and ignored his condition. Would he make the cap fit, so to speak?
In 1996, the Tories' botched reorganisation of local government removed £400 million from Scotland and £50 million from Glasgow. In the three years after that, Glasgow's council tax rose by 50.5 per cent but, in the seven subsequent budgets, there were no above-inflation increases. Glasgow's gross tax increase in the past five years has been 10.9 per cent against a Scottish average of 23.5 per cent.
The SNP has a brass neck today because it has resisted every one of Glasgow's attempts to reform the local finance system.
Time is short in the debate, so this speech will have to be foreshortened. Obviously, the Burt committee has its work cut out. We need reform not abolition of the council tax. Also, if we reform the grant system, we had better remember that it is a zero-sum game and there will be winners and losers. Burt and his colleagues have much straining to do; let us hope that their straining produces more than a mouse.
For me, the learning curve has been steep and long. Alas, like some here I could mention, I cannot claim to have run away from the circus as a boy to join a firm of chartered accountants. On being elected to Strathclyde Regional Council in 1987, I found finance dry and boring. I found service issues such as transport and education to be sexier. When I became Strathclyde's transport convener in 1994, it was quite a shock to have to fight to retain my £0.5 billion budget in a tough, competitive, corporate budget round. The first lesson that I learned was that all services, sexy or otherwise, have to be paid for from a balanced budget.
However, I suspect that most politicians do not like to talk about finance. Many do not like to think about it and too many still do not understand it. I know that I did not feel confident in 1997 as deputy leader of Glasgow City Council, when my leader, Frank McAveety, asked me to take control of Glasgow's £2 billion budget. I sent for the director of finance—the legendary Jimmy Andrews, who gave 50 years of service to Glasgow. I pointed at a pile of budget papers on my desk that was too heavy to lift and I asked a technical question: "Jimmy, what's the answer to this dead hard sum?" "What answer would you like, councillor?" he replied. I felt a great weight lift from my shoulders. I was not alone. Budgeting was not a science, but an art. That was another lesson learned.
Years ago in the United States of America, a persistent bank robber was serving his last and longest jail term when he was visited by a young sociologist—I see that Des McNulty has left, which is a pity because he is a sociologist—for a research interview. The first question was, "Why do you rob banks?" The answer came, "Because that is where the money is."
Behind such obscure jargon as aggregate external finance and revenue support grant, it is all about money. That is a fact for me and every other member, for councils, for the Executive and for the Government. If we had more money, we could do more things with it. If the money is under the control of elected councillors, they are directly accountable to their electorate for the services they specify and the taxes that they levy.
John Swinney's motion calls for the national taxpayers of Scotland to give an extra £93.2 million to local councils on the condition that there is a real-terms freeze in council tax. Let us leave to one side the plain fact that to the man on the Sauchiehall Street omnibus, a council tax freeze means a zero increase, which the SNP's obfuscation would not deliver. Let us explore the SNP's condition or, as it is called in the jargon, ring fencing. Imposing that condition is wrong in practice because it removes the choices that having more money could bring to councils. It is also wrong in principle because it usurps the role of elected councillors. Perhaps John Swinney is a centraliser by inclination; it is a species that is represented in every part of the chamber after all. If so, I wonder what he would do if councillors used the cash for other things and ignored his condition. Would he make the cap fit, so to speak?
In 1996, the Tories' botched reorganisation of local government removed £400 million from Scotland and £50 million from Glasgow. In the three years after that, Glasgow's council tax rose by 50.5 per cent but, in the seven subsequent budgets, there were no above-inflation increases. Glasgow's gross tax increase in the past five years has been 10.9 per cent against a Scottish average of 23.5 per cent.
The SNP has a brass neck today because it has resisted every one of Glasgow's attempts to reform the local finance system.
Time is short in the debate, so this speech will have to be foreshortened. Obviously, the Burt committee has its work cut out. We need reform not abolition of the council tax. Also, if we reform the grant system, we had better remember that it is a zero-sum game and there will be winners and losers. Burt and his colleagues have much straining to do; let us hope that their straining produces more than a mouse.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business this morning is a debate on motion S2M-3795, in the name of John Swinney, on local government finance.
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
It is always a pleasure to debate with the Deputy Minister for Finance, Public Service Reform and Parliamentary Business on these great occasions. I assume t...
The Deputy Minister for Finance, Public Service Reform and Parliamentary Business (George Lyon):
LD
Does John Swinney recall from what I said to that committee that his quotation is selective? I said that the initial indications from councils were that some...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Can I assume that that means that we have a guarantee from the deputy minister that council tax increases will be no higher than 2.5 per cent? That is the qu...
George Lyon:
LD
On a point of information, Mr Swinney claims that that information is based on six case studies. In fact, it is based on six case studies and 15 returns from...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
We have been asking for the report since Monday and it was apparently published on 28 December. We were told yesterday that it was going to be published in t...
George Lyon:
LD
I have a quick point of clarification for Mr Swinney. Even if we accepted the £84.9 million funding gap figure that is quoted in the Finance Committee's repo...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
According to the Finance Committee, the funding gap is £84.9 million. If the minister is going to question the figures in the committee's report, he should t...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
If an independent body—not COSLA or the Scottish Executive but, say, Audit Scotland—found that councils that were threatening to cut front-line services had ...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Local authorities have to make prudent judgments on the level of their reserves and provision in the same way that the Scottish Executive has to make judgmen...
The Deputy Minister for Finance, Public Service Reform and Parliamentary Business (George Lyon):
LD
I welcome the debate; indeed, given that councils currently spend about £17 billion a year on delivering many of our public services, the subject is very imp...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Will the minister give way?
George Lyon:
LD
That stands in stark contrast to the "dreadful" settlements that Mr Swinney referred to in his opening speech.
Mr Davidson:
Con
Will the minister give way?
George Lyon:
LD
Yes.
Mr Davidson:
Con
I am sorry, Presiding Officer—either my voice is not carrying very far or the minister has not had his ears cleaned this morning.The minister has just referr...
George Lyon:
LD
Such decisions are made by locally elected councillors. Our track record over that time shows a 55 per cent increase in direct support from the Executive, wh...
Mark Ballard (Lothians) (Green):
Green
I would be interested in the minister's comments on paragraph 77 of the Finance Committee report, which states:"The Committee also noted that the Aggregate E...
George Lyon:
LD
I point out to Mr Ballard that, on top of AEF, we have the direct grants from Executive departments to local government. We also have prudential borrowing an...
Brian Adam (Aberdeen North) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister give way?
George Lyon:
LD
I would like to make a little progress, if Mr Adam does not mind.In addition, councils have other resources at their disposal. This year, for example, the Ex...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
The minister has talked about the allocation of specific funds and about the funds that are available to local authorities. Will he tell us specifically how ...
George Lyon:
LD
As we have said many times in answer to that question, that is a deal that was negotiated and agreed between the local government representative body, COSLA,...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Will the minister clarify two points? First, if further savings are going to be available for reinvestment by local authorities, why has the first tranche of...
George Lyon:
LD
In answer to the first question, the original money that was deducted at source may well have been reinvested in council support, but we have not put in plac...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Ah!
George Lyon:
LD
A third of the Executive budget goes to local government, so that money could have gone to local government.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
It could not.
George Lyon:
LD
It could so. Councils have taken advantage of the generous financial settlements in previous years to build substantial balances.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
The minister must substantiate his claim that that money has been reinvested in local authorities. It is a central—