Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 14 November 2012
14 Nov 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Further Education
I am delighted to speak in the debate, because I have always been involved in higher education.
I wish Stow College well. I hope that it overcomes the issues that it currently faces, and I hope that the situation does not affect staff morale and students’ academic futures.
I have always been keen to promote the value of Scottish colleges, in Glasgow, in Scotland and internationally. Scotland’s Rural University College works in Lahore and other cities in Pakistan, and the City of Glasgow College works in Karachi and Lahore. We have a proud history of engaging with cities and countries overseas, and I thank our colleges for the wonderful job that they do and for facing up to the current challenges.
There can be no doubt that colleges provide access to education to a diverse range of people, through flexible learning models and a broad subject choice. That flexibility has an effect on social mobility. People from minority communities and people with disabilities benefit from college education, and students from diverse areas attend colleges and universities.
Several college mergers have taken place, and there will be more. In previous mergers, there has been support for our colleges to enable them to transfer to the new model, but that will not happen on this occasion. We are saying to our colleges that they will have to deal with those issues with current resources, and that is a huge challenge for colleges in a time of cuts. We are going through such a harsh economic situation just now, and saying to colleges that they must deal with the matter themselves places a huge burden on them.
As young people have to compete in an increasingly harsh labour market, there is a rising demand for college places. We have heard that there is a waiting list of people who want to go to colleges to retrain. I have heard various comments today about “hobby courses”, but I do not know what those are. To me, any learning is learning, and when people learn, they can apply themselves.
We give a lot of credit and credence to industry and businesses, but we do not seem to understand that we are a country of entrepreneurs. There are people who are self-employed, who earn a great deal of respect and money for this country. They also need education, and such education does not need to be focused, as we need people to be able to choose subjects. Flexibility and choice of subjects are important, as the fewer subjects we have, the less we have to offer and the more we deny our young the opportunities that they need.
I do not really care what happens down south, or in Ireland, Iceland or the Netherlands. I care what happens in Scotland, and in Glasgow. I know that our young need jobs, and that they need to be professional. If we want to attract industry from overseas, we need a professional workforce, and for that we need colleges and courses. To pretend anything different is useless, and we should not go there.
It is very important for us to ensure that we represent the needs of our communities. The idea of pulling parties down and trawling through people’s figures is not what this is about. We need to do a job, in the sense that we want to provide for our young and for our future, and we can do that only if we provide a service.
There are challenges with regard to how we deal with those issues. One or two members in the chamber have asked Opposition members, “What would you do to fund colleges?” The Government should not bring forward a policy, go through this charade of a debate, and then just pass it on. It should speak to people and share ideas, and come up with conclusions and solutions that are fit for purpose.
We all say that we have free education in our universities, but what about our colleges? If people cannot get into a college, they will have to pay to go somewhere else, so it is not free. Free is only free if someone can get access and can have the opportunity to study, and they will not get that if we go down the road that we are going down just now.
I wish Stow College well. I hope that it overcomes the issues that it currently faces, and I hope that the situation does not affect staff morale and students’ academic futures.
I have always been keen to promote the value of Scottish colleges, in Glasgow, in Scotland and internationally. Scotland’s Rural University College works in Lahore and other cities in Pakistan, and the City of Glasgow College works in Karachi and Lahore. We have a proud history of engaging with cities and countries overseas, and I thank our colleges for the wonderful job that they do and for facing up to the current challenges.
There can be no doubt that colleges provide access to education to a diverse range of people, through flexible learning models and a broad subject choice. That flexibility has an effect on social mobility. People from minority communities and people with disabilities benefit from college education, and students from diverse areas attend colleges and universities.
Several college mergers have taken place, and there will be more. In previous mergers, there has been support for our colleges to enable them to transfer to the new model, but that will not happen on this occasion. We are saying to our colleges that they will have to deal with those issues with current resources, and that is a huge challenge for colleges in a time of cuts. We are going through such a harsh economic situation just now, and saying to colleges that they must deal with the matter themselves places a huge burden on them.
As young people have to compete in an increasingly harsh labour market, there is a rising demand for college places. We have heard that there is a waiting list of people who want to go to colleges to retrain. I have heard various comments today about “hobby courses”, but I do not know what those are. To me, any learning is learning, and when people learn, they can apply themselves.
We give a lot of credit and credence to industry and businesses, but we do not seem to understand that we are a country of entrepreneurs. There are people who are self-employed, who earn a great deal of respect and money for this country. They also need education, and such education does not need to be focused, as we need people to be able to choose subjects. Flexibility and choice of subjects are important, as the fewer subjects we have, the less we have to offer and the more we deny our young the opportunities that they need.
I do not really care what happens down south, or in Ireland, Iceland or the Netherlands. I care what happens in Scotland, and in Glasgow. I know that our young need jobs, and that they need to be professional. If we want to attract industry from overseas, we need a professional workforce, and for that we need colleges and courses. To pretend anything different is useless, and we should not go there.
It is very important for us to ensure that we represent the needs of our communities. The idea of pulling parties down and trawling through people’s figures is not what this is about. We need to do a job, in the sense that we want to provide for our young and for our future, and we can do that only if we provide a service.
There are challenges with regard to how we deal with those issues. One or two members in the chamber have asked Opposition members, “What would you do to fund colleges?” The Government should not bring forward a policy, go through this charade of a debate, and then just pass it on. It should speak to people and share ideas, and come up with conclusions and solutions that are fit for purpose.
We all say that we have free education in our universities, but what about our colleges? If people cannot get into a college, they will have to pay to go somewhere else, so it is not free. Free is only free if someone can get access and can have the opportunity to study, and they will not get that if we go down the road that we are going down just now.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-04787, in the name of Liz Smith, on education. Members who wish to speak in the debate should press their...
Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Con
Last Friday, several members were privileged to attend the Scottish Council for Development and Industry awards dinner at the magnificent new Emirates arena ...
Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
SNP
What facts?
Liz Smith
Con
There are plenty of facts, and I have given members quite a lot of them.This is a very serious matter. I suggest that all the Opposition parties and many par...
The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell)
SNP
Apart from the last minute of the speech by Liz Smith, I commend her for bringing the motion to the chamber. The measured tone in which she addressed the iss...
Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
Will the member give way?
Michael Russell
SNP
No. I want to make progress, Mr Findlay, please.The sector could perform better and it will perform better. It can have confident learners leaving college wi...
Michael Russell
SNP
One moment, please.Scotland is a hotbed of potential and talent and the changes will allow that talent to thrive.I accept that access is of key importance an...
Neil Findlay
Lab
The cabinet secretary talks about widening access. What is the situation for adult learners with learning difficulties who are trying to access college? How ...
Michael Russell
SNP
I have made it clear in my discussions with the sector, as has the Scottish funding council, that we want to ensure that the widest range of students is reta...
Liz Smith
Con
I do not in any way dispute the complexity of much of the analysis when it comes to college spend. However, does the cabinet secretary acknowledge that it ha...
Michael Russell
SNP
No, I do not accept that. I said to Liz Smith in the committee when she asked me that question that the figures are quite clear on where we are. Where we are...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Con
I listened to what the cabinet secretary said in response to Neil Findlay and to the Conservatives. The Auditor General for Scotland’s report from last month...
Michael Russell
SNP
I am very fond of Mary Scanlon, but she really should have been at the meeting at which that matter was discussed. It was quite clear that we are taking forw...
Hugh Henry (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Lab
It is just not true that members in this chamber are opposed to change. Scottish Labour does welcome some of the changes that are being discussed for Scotlan...
Michael Russell
SNP
That is what you do.
Hugh Henry
Lab
Excuse me, but I said nothing during the cabinet secretary’s speech, although others may have done so. However, if SNP members want to shout and bawl because...
Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in a debate on the important subject of further education.I will start with facts about what is happening in Sc...
Gavin Brown (Lothian) (Con)
Con
The member said that he agrees with Liam Burns. What did Liam Burns have to say about the college cuts that the Scottish Government is imposing?
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I presume that because Gavin Brown is asking the question he does not know what Liam Burns said about the college cuts. The Education and Culture Committee w...
Liz Smith
Con
Will Stewart Maxwell take an intervention?
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
I will just finish this point, and then I will let Liz Smith in.For further education colleges with access agreements, the average fee for a full-time studen...
Liz Smith
Con
There are cuts, as I said in my speech. What is at issue is that the Scottish Government’s priorities in Scotland, for which it is entirely responsible, are ...
Stewart Maxwell
SNP
No, I do not accept that. I fail to understand what Liz Smith would cut instead. Is she making it clear that she would introduce the tuition fees that I just...
Anne McTaggart (Glasgow) (Lab)
Lab
I thank Liz Smith for bringing the debate to the chamber. I am pleased to have the opportunity to represent the concerns of many students in Glasgow about fu...
Michael Russell
SNP
I do not recognise the allegation that I said that there was no waiting list. I said that waiting list figures could not be relied on because they do not tel...
Anne McTaggart
Lab
If the cabinet secretary is saying that the figure of more than 21,000 is not to be relied on, he should note that the specific figure in the article was 21,...
Michael Russell
SNP
It is. Interruption.
Anne McTaggart
Lab
I will continue, Presiding Officer.This is the reality of the Scottish Government’s savage cuts to the further education sector in Scotland.Another concernin...
Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
It is useful for us not to forget that the college reforms were intended to put learners at the centre. The college regionalisation model is about improving ...