Committee
Justice Committee 04 February 2014
04 Feb 2014 · S4 · Justice Committee
Item of business
Tribunals (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Amendments 92 to 97 all cover the appointment of judicial members. These are merely probing amendments so that we can hear the minister’s views on the following points.During stage 1, a number of witnesses raised concern about what was referred to as the judicialisation of tribunals. Tribunals are, by nature, generally less formal and less adversarial than courts and are, in the main, forums in which justice can be determined without the need for lawyers and judges.Section 16 allows all sheriffs and part-time sheriffs, judges and temporary judges to be appointed as judicial members of tribunals. Although the appointment of judicial members is appropriate to allow tribunals to have access to important expertise, a number of witnesses expressed concern that the provision is drafted too widely.10:00 Section 16 in particular states that all members of the judiciary are automatically eligible to act as judicial members purely by virtue of holding judicial office. Given the committee’s view that the particular nature and characteristics of tribunals must be protected, I ask the minister to comment on the committee’s recommendation in its stage 1 report that the Government consider whether section 16 should be amended to remove the automatic entitlement of members of the judiciary to be appointed as judicial members.The amendments in my name seek to address that concern by making it clear that, although sheriffs and judges are eligible to become judicial members, they must be actively appointed by the president of the tribunals after consultation with the Lord President. Amendments 92 and 93 seek to remove the word “authorised” in section 16.More significantly, amendment 94 seeks to provide for appointment by the president of the tribunals only when he or she is satisfied that a sheriff or judge is “suitably qualified” and he or she would also be required to identify a placement or position and the need for a judicial member on a particular tribunal. The term “suitably qualified” is taken from section 2 of the Lands Tribunal Act 1949 as amended. I would be grateful if the minister could clarify the instances in which judicial members would be appointed and respond to the suggestion that the automatic entitlement for appointments in section 16 be removed. In addition, I ask the minister to indicate whether the Government has considered any other safeguards to avoid the judicialisation of tribunals.Do I move my amendment now, convener?
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
The next item is stage 2 proceedings on the Tribunals (Scotland) Bill. I think that we can probably get all the way through it today—I am advised that it doe...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 1, in the name of Elaine Murray, is grouped with amendments 29 and 30.
Elaine Murray (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Lab
In several recommendations in its stage 1 report, this committee reiterated its view that the particular nature and characteristics of tribunals should be pr...
The Convener
SNP
I am sure that the minister will clarify that point, as I now call her to speak to amendment 29 and the other amendments in the group.
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
In its stage 1 report, the committee called for the characteristics of tribunals to be protected in the bill and sought an amendment setting out general prin...
The Convener
SNP
Before Elaine Murray responds, does any other member wish to come in?
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
Notwithstanding what the minister has just said, I believe that the definition of “tribunal” would be a welcome addition to the bill and would help to clarif...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
I remind members that, when we put definitions in the bill, we are by definition unintentionally—or intentionally—excluding the possibility that we might in ...
Elaine Murray
Lab
I am interested in what the minister says, but I am still not certain about what sort of tribunal would fall outwith the definition. I cannot imagine any tri...
The Convener
SNP
I am blocked up and cannot hear anything, so members will need to shout. The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed?Members: No.
The Convener
SNP
There will be a division.ForFinnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)Pearson,...
The Convener
SNP
The result of the division is: For 4, Against 5, Abstentions 0.Amendment 1 disagreed to.
The Convener
SNP
I warn members that my deputy convener and I are struggling through shared head colds—it is a coalition of the cold—so they will have to shout.Section 1—Esta...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 6, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 7, 31 and 32.
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
The amendments in this group make provisions in relation to functions being conferred directly on the Scottish tribunals by another act.When a new tribunal j...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 8, in the name of Elaine Murray, is grouped with amendments 11 and 68.
Elaine Murray
Lab
Amendment 8 seeks to place a duty on the Lord President in carrying out his or her functions to adhere to the principles for Scottish tribunals: the need for...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
Amendment 8, in the name of Elaine Murray, would place a duty on the Lord President to adhere to certain principles. I have reflected on what the committee a...
Roderick Campbell (North East Fife) (SNP)
SNP
I have just a small point to make. The Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, which is a UK act, states:“The Lord Chancellor is under a duty to ensure t...
The Convener
SNP
I agree about the language of “innovative methods”, but I would have liked some comment about mediation prior to tribunals. I agree with the minister’s posit...
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
There is a bigger issue, across more than one piece of legislation, about the need for mediation and I am not sure that introducing it as a paragraph in an a...
Elaine Murray
Lab
I will not press amendment 8. Apart from anything else, there would be duplication and a certain amount of conflict if the two amendments were agreed to. I w...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 9, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 10, 49, 50 to 53, 73 to 76 and 83.
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
These amendments provide more clarity and flexibility around decision making in the Scottish tribunals.Amendment 52 sets out the arrangements for voting on d...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 12, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 13 to 15.
Roseanna Cunningham
SNP
The amendments make changes to section 13, to make it absolutely clear that all tribunal members have judicial status and capacity by virtue of holding their...
The Convener
SNP
Amendment 92, in the name of Margaret Mitchell, is grouped with amendments 16, 93, 17, 94, 95, 18, 96 and 97.
Margaret Mitchell
Con
Amendments 92 to 97 all cover the appointment of judicial members. These are merely probing amendments so that we can hear the minister’s views on the follow...
The Convener
SNP
You can probe away all you like, but you have to move amendment 92.
Margaret Mitchell
Con
I move amendment 92.