Committee
Procedures Committee, 24 Jan 2006
24 Jan 2006 · S2 · Procedures Committee
Item of business
Parliamentary Time
Well, I may limit myself to a few general points. I am sure that you have already considered some issues, which other members will have raised, to do with the pressure of time and the speed with which legislation is pushed through, in terms of both the speaking time that is available at stage 3—an issue that Donald Gorrie has raised on several occasions—and the delay between the different stages.As a new MSP, in the first few months after the 2003 election, I found myself thrown in at the deep end with the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill. Cathie Craigie will remember that, as she was on the same committee as me. I understood the bill process to a degree only by the time I came out of the other end of it. I am hopeful that I will be returned in the next parliamentary session, and that I will not have to go through that learning curve again. For newly elected members, however, it is important that their contributions to committees' scrutiny take place at a reasonable speed that allows them to come to terms with the process, as well as the content of the legislation.Regarding human rights scrutiny of legislation, the Scottish Parliament can pass legislation only if it is compliant with human rights law. If it is not human rights compliant, it can be struck down by the courts. That places on us a responsibility to ensure that we get it right first time, rather than allow situations to develop where a court may need to take action.Mistakes can be made, as nearly happened with the Family Law (Scotland) Bill recently. Regardless of what members feel are the rights and wrongs of the argument on the waiting period for divorce, amendments were agreed to that affected the separation time only for marital divorce. The same did not apply to the separation time for civil partnership. If the bill had been passed in that form, it would not have been compliant with human rights legislation. At stage 3, the Executive moved amendments to return the separation periods to their original levels. It also had to lodge amendments to increase the civil partnership dissolution time, so that if the first argument was lost there was a second chance to ensure that the bill was compliant with human rights legislation. That is the type of detail that could be missed. I am glad that the Executive picked up on it on that occasion, but rattling through legislation at such a fast rate means that there is a risk that such issues might be missed.Members receive next to no independent advice on human rights law compliance. The Presiding Officer's office ticks a box to tell us that he regards a piece of legislation as compliant with human rights law. MSPs are not, however, given the grey areas surrounding the issues, let alone the arguments for one side or the other. Although the Executive's policy memorandum brings human rights issues to our attention, the detailed arguments as to why one issue outweighs another are not available.MSPs are ultimately responsible for the standing of the Parliament. We will take significant blame if legislation is passed and then struck down by the courts. It is not unreasonable to argue that that could happen if we receive no independent advice on human rights issues surrounding legislation. The timescales matter in their own right when dotting the i's and crossing the t's. Human rights compliance has two aspects—timescales and independent advice.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
LD
I am sorry that Margo MacDonald and Patrick Harvie have been kept waiting. We thought that we could sneak in an item, but we did not allow sufficient time.
Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):
Ind
I can feel my life ebbing away, convener.
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green):
Green
It has given us a fascinating insight.
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
In the absence of objections, I will tell you what the Parliamentary Bureau will say: "Over to you."
The Convener:
LD
We are grateful to you for coming. A number of members signed up for the second of our sessions, but several who were hoping to come today cannot. We look fo...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Let us do something radical—let him go first.
The Convener:
LD
Okay. Patrick, I ask for your thoughts on any issues. We will make notes and question you as we go along, if we want clarification. Margo is also allowed to ...
Patrick Harvie:
Green
Thank you. I did not expect such a formal session. If I am limited to a few general points—
The Convener:
LD
No, you are not limited at all.
Patrick Harvie:
Green
Well, I may limit myself to a few general points. I am sure that you have already considered some issues, which other members will have raised, to do with th...
The Convener:
LD
Two helpful points have been made. If you were in charge of the mechanisms, would you slow down the stage 2 process in committee to ensure that more time was...
Patrick Harvie:
Green
There is a case for slowing the process down. There is also a case for ensuring that legislative texts are clearer and in plain language. When members lodge ...
Mr McFee:
SNP
I think—
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
I am sorry, but do we not get help from the chamber desk when we are lodging an amendment or submitting anything else that is to be reproduced in written for...
Patrick Harvie:
Green
Yes, but—
Mr McFee:
SNP
I want to open up the debate a little. We have heard much about the points that Patrick Harvie raised on the rushed nature of the stage 3 process. I think th...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Excuse me, convener, but surely that is what the explanatory notes are for. While I was the convener of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, we quite often...
Patrick Harvie:
Green
I raised the issue because of the concern that nothing should be allowed to happen that could result in the Parliament passing legislation that is not human ...
Cathie Craigie:
Lab
You suggest that an independent adviser should be appointed. Who would that independent adviser advise: the committee as it takes a bill through its various ...
Patrick Harvie:
Green
When a committee determined that a piece of legislation that it had to deal with raised human rights issues, it could appoint an external adviser. Another wa...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
But that is MSPs' responsibility.
Cathie Craigie:
Lab
Is it not fair to say that, during the past six years, we have relied on the Presiding Officer's office for that, and we have accepted the decision of the Pr...
Patrick Harvie:
Green
That is an expression of a view on the bill as it is introduced, but not as it is shaped during stage 2.
Mr McFee:
SNP
I am on the Justice 1 Committee, which considered the Family Law (Scotland) Bill, and we had Professor Kenneth Norrie, who is clued-up on human rights matter...
Margo MacDonald:
Ind
Is it not a matter of judgment, convener? After someone has been here for a wee while, they can work out the legislation that might be tricky, that might bre...
The Convener:
LD
Patrick Harvie made the point that amendments should be accompanied by a plain language interpretation. At present, they are not. Bills have explanatory note...
Patrick Harvie:
Green
It need only be a couple of paragraphs. In many cases, the change that an amendment would make to a bill can be explained easily. Often, an idea starts out a...
Alex Johnstone:
Con
In my experience, the debate on an amendment often focuses on what the amendment means or how it would be interpreted. Patrick Harvie suggests that, before t...
The Convener:
LD
I cannot speak for Patrick Harvie, but as I understand it he thinks that the member who lodges an amendment should attach to it a wee spiel that gives his or...
Mr McFee:
SNP
Many of those organisations are pretty good at giving explanations of what they mean. Some members take up the suggested amendments almost verbatim and slap ...