Chamber
Plenary, 08 Jun 2006
08 Jun 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Regulatory Framework
Some—although perhaps not all—members know that subordinate legislation is not used in every legislature. In fact, some of our European colleagues are shocked that we give ministers powers to make rules and regulations that implement primary legislation without any effective scrutiny by the Parliament. They believe that we are foolish—it happens in the Commonwealth nations, too—to allow our ministers such powers.
Jamie Stone referred to the Henry VIII principle, which involves the power to amend primary legislation by using secondary legislation and therefore gives ministers enormous power.
We have heard about the number of instruments that come before committees and the Parliament. I venture to suggest that—apart from members of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, or members who are particularly interested—nobody reads those instruments. Nobody knows what they say, what their impact is, who they will affect, or whether they make a major change to primary legislation.
Subordinate legislation is important: it puts the flesh on the bones of laws; it says what is allowed and what is not; and it deals with sanctions such as criminal penalties. In evidence to the committee, the Federation of Small Businesses said that it believes that subordinate legislation is extremely important, and I think it supported the committee in its view that changes should be made.
Regulation by subordinate legislation is one of the things business complains about most. I and some others in the chamber were lambasted at a Hansard Society event by representatives of the chemical industry about the plethora of regulations and the frequent and minor changes that are made and that are not explained to the industry in an understandable way. Such changes are sometimes like the amendments to motions that we consider in this chamber: one word, as many of us know, can make a great difference. Is it "may" or "shall", or "could" or "would"? The choice can wholly change the focus of a piece of legislation.
In 2003, when I came to the Parliament, I began on the Subordinate Legislation Committee—and I did not regard it as the gulag. In my previous life, I had worked with such rules and regulations and I knew how important they were. I knew how difficult life could be when they were wrong or not as effective as they might have been, or when they clashed with other regulations. We have all despaired over trying to implement policy when there is conflict between two sets of regulations, perhaps for two different pieces of legislation.
Regulations affect more people than just those in business. They affect the voluntary sector, public agencies, the environment and, ultimately, every person in Scotland. It is therefore important, in this second phase of the work of the committee—which, of necessity, focuses inwards on the technicalities—that we keep our eye firmly on the external effects on business, on the public agencies, on the voluntary sector and on our communities.
In 2005, the Hampton review into better regulation in Westminster said that
"different regulators find it hard to join their systems or operations"
and that that could
"result in missed opportunities".
The report also highlighted the inconsistencies in regulation that I have referred to.
With such points firmly in mind, the Subordinate Legislation Committee considered what might be good for Scotland. The major recommendation in its report is that the system should be simpler. Members have spoken of the complexities, of the different forms of instrument, and of the terminology. John Swinburne is quite right to talk about the acronyms, but it is not only the acronyms; it is all the terminology.
From my time on the committee, I remember Alasdair Morgan showing off his Greek.
Jamie Stone referred to the Henry VIII principle, which involves the power to amend primary legislation by using secondary legislation and therefore gives ministers enormous power.
We have heard about the number of instruments that come before committees and the Parliament. I venture to suggest that—apart from members of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, or members who are particularly interested—nobody reads those instruments. Nobody knows what they say, what their impact is, who they will affect, or whether they make a major change to primary legislation.
Subordinate legislation is important: it puts the flesh on the bones of laws; it says what is allowed and what is not; and it deals with sanctions such as criminal penalties. In evidence to the committee, the Federation of Small Businesses said that it believes that subordinate legislation is extremely important, and I think it supported the committee in its view that changes should be made.
Regulation by subordinate legislation is one of the things business complains about most. I and some others in the chamber were lambasted at a Hansard Society event by representatives of the chemical industry about the plethora of regulations and the frequent and minor changes that are made and that are not explained to the industry in an understandable way. Such changes are sometimes like the amendments to motions that we consider in this chamber: one word, as many of us know, can make a great difference. Is it "may" or "shall", or "could" or "would"? The choice can wholly change the focus of a piece of legislation.
In 2003, when I came to the Parliament, I began on the Subordinate Legislation Committee—and I did not regard it as the gulag. In my previous life, I had worked with such rules and regulations and I knew how important they were. I knew how difficult life could be when they were wrong or not as effective as they might have been, or when they clashed with other regulations. We have all despaired over trying to implement policy when there is conflict between two sets of regulations, perhaps for two different pieces of legislation.
Regulations affect more people than just those in business. They affect the voluntary sector, public agencies, the environment and, ultimately, every person in Scotland. It is therefore important, in this second phase of the work of the committee—which, of necessity, focuses inwards on the technicalities—that we keep our eye firmly on the external effects on business, on the public agencies, on the voluntary sector and on our communities.
In 2005, the Hampton review into better regulation in Westminster said that
"different regulators find it hard to join their systems or operations"
and that that could
"result in missed opportunities".
The report also highlighted the inconsistencies in regulation that I have referred to.
With such points firmly in mind, the Subordinate Legislation Committee considered what might be good for Scotland. The major recommendation in its report is that the system should be simpler. Members have spoken of the complexities, of the different forms of instrument, and of the terminology. John Swinburne is quite right to talk about the acronyms, but it is not only the acronyms; it is all the terminology.
From my time on the committee, I remember Alasdair Morgan showing off his Greek.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
NPA
Good morning. The first item of business is a debate on motion number S2M-4502, in the name of Sylvia Jackson, on behalf of the Subordinate Legislation commi...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):
Lab
As convener of the Subordinate Legislation Committee, it is with great pleasure that I open the debate on the committee's draft report, which follows its inq...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
And Greek.
Dr Jackson:
Lab
Yes, and Greek. The committee's work is becoming more important as more legislation is delegated to secondary legislation. For example, in 2005-06 there were...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I will echo some of Sylvia Jackson's comments. I express my thanks to the clerking team, the legal advisers—who we could not do without—and particularly the ...
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
It was a punishment.
Mr Maxwell:
SNP
Over time, Jamie Stone will come to love the committee, as others do. That view is held not because of the work that the committee does or the broad range of...
Murray Tosh (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I start by associating myself with the remarks of Sylvia Jackson and Stewart Maxwell about the work of the clerks and advisers to the committee. In the first...
Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD):
LD
I woke up this morning and looked out the window, saw that it was a bright, cheerful day—and then remembered this debate. I joke. I am the newest member of t...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Ms Margaret Curran):
Lab
I bet that made your eyes light up.
Mr Stone:
LD
I hear what the minister says. Whether I understand what they are even now is debatable. I will not say anything about what I thought when I heard the word "...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP):
SSCUP
Does the member think that the document uses too many acronyms? Members of the committee may know what all the initials stand for, but could not things be ma...
Mr Stone:
LD
There is a lot in what John Swinburne says. He is probably going in the same direction as me. It is worth pointing out, as members have done, that the report...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
We move to the open debate, in which I am not imposing any time constraints on members.
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
Some—although perhaps not all—members know that subordinate legislation is not used in every legislature. In fact, some of our European colleagues are shocke...
Ms Curran:
Lab
His Greek what?
Christine May:
Lab
Well, I notice that he is dressed in furry lining and anorak colours today. Is that deliberate for such a technical discussion? I withdraw that question. It ...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I apologise to Christine May, but I have not had time since she made her remark to rush out and change my suit, so she will have to put up with this one. In ...
Murray Tosh:
Con
We understand the point that is being made, but does Mr Morgan envisage the Parliament having the resource and the time to deal with amendments, possible ame...
Alasdair Morgan:
SNP
That is the difficulty that we have. It is difficult to see what the alternative is. To a large extent, we must look to the Executive to play the game as wel...
Murray Tosh:
Con
I understand that, 40 years down the road, the Parliament and the Executive that is in power may have an entirely different view of legislation. Would not th...
Alasdair Morgan:
SNP
Yes, but we are dealing with a situation in which a committee is presented with a statutory instrument to which it must say yes or no. That is the difficulty...
Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak, Presiding Officer. I was not planning to do so, but I am happy to make a contribution.
Mr Stone:
LD
Are you really happy, Ken?
Mr Macintosh:
Lab
Well, one of the reasons why I argued in the committee that we should have this debate today was so that we might engage members who are not involved in the ...
Murray Tosh:
Con
It is perfectly possible under the existing system to bring ministers to every committee to discuss every statutory instrument, simply by lodging a motion to...
Mr Macintosh:
Lab
I agree with Murray Tosh. I believe that the new system will be a huge improvement on the current system. There are clear attractions in it, not just for the...
Mr Jim Wallace (Orkney) (LD):
LD
I must be the first member to speak in the debate who has not been a member of the Subordinate Legislation Committee. I am delighted to be able to take part ...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
The debate calls to mind the halcyon days that I spent discussing statutory instruments in the Subordinate Legislation Committee on Tuesday mornings during t...
Mr Stone:
LD
Henry VIII provisions.