Committee
Finance Committee, 07 Nov 2006
07 Nov 2006 · S2 · Finance Committee
Item of business
Schools (Health Promotion and Nutrition) (Scotland) Bill<br />and<br />Education (School Meals etc) (Scotland) Bill:<br />Financial Memoranda
We had a major piece of research done on free school meals. It looked at targeting versus universality. That research, by Morelli and Seaman of the University of Dundee, is referred to in the policy memorandum and shows that targeting is the more inefficient approach. Targeting is not an efficient way to get meals to the children who need them most. Morelli and Seaman prove by their research that such efforts do not necessarily reach the children of people who are working but are on low incomes, or those with a low family income and several children in the household. Targeting does not necessarily reach all the children whose parents are on benefits or receive the child tax credit either. There is an assumption that parents will fill in the form. There are loads of children who would benefit from the policy. They should be entitled to free school meals, given their families' incomes, although they might not be on benefits and might not meet the current, very narrow, criteria. The researchers argue that universality is in fact a much more efficient way of getting meals to the children who particularly need them. It is only for the top 10 per cent of families, who are very well off, that the policy would not have a major beneficial effect on the family income. One of the reasons for that is the fact that wages are so low in Scotland—three quarters of the population earn less than £25,000 a year. The policy outcome would be better in Scotland or Northern Ireland than it would be in England. In my opinion, Morelli and Seaman prove that universality is the most efficient way to deliver the policy.
In the same item of business
The Convener (Des McNulty):
Lab
Welcome to the 27th meeting in 2006 of the Finance Committee. I remind everyone that pagers and mobile phones should be switched off. No apologies have been ...
Frances Curran (West of Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
I thank the committee for taking time to consider my bill. I know that time is precious in the six months that remain of the parliamentary session.The policy...
The Convener:
Lab
Thank you very much. I invite Elaine Murray to begin the questioning.
Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab):
Lab
It is not clear whether the bill is intended to enable local authorities to provide other free meals, as well as free school lunches. Last week, we heard fro...
Frances Curran:
SSP
The bill is restricted to the provision of healthy lunch-time meals in primary schools. The reason for that is that the take-up rate is only about 20 per cen...
Dr Murray:
Lab
Is the provision of free milk included in the bill?
Frances Curran:
SSP
Yes, free milk and water are included in the costings for the bill.
Dr Murray:
Lab
Does that amount to £6 million?
Frances Curran:
SSP
The cost is included in the £73 million.
Dr Murray:
Lab
When we took evidence from COSLA and Glasgow City Council last week, we heard that uptake has been a problem since schools have tried to provide a more healt...
Frances Curran:
SSP
The drop in take-up that Fergus Chambers described last week related specifically to secondary schools, but the figures he gave were quite encouraging. He sa...
Dr Murray:
Lab
Did Hull City Council have to make a lot of capital investment? COSLA has pointed out that the hungry for success programme has not required much capital inv...
Frances Curran:
SSP
The council funded staff training, staff cover and capital investment. I have looked at COSLA's figures for implementing hungry for success. Last week, when ...
Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab):
Lab
Who do you think has more experience and understanding of how a free school meals service should be delivered: you or the local authorities that have provide...
Frances Curran:
SSP
I am sure that local authorities have more experience of that.
Mr McAveety:
Lab
In that case, what is your response to COSLA's claim that the projected costs in the financial memorandum have been "severely underestimated"?
Frances Curran:
SSP
I find it difficult to respond, given that COSLA provides no breakdown of the global £100 million it mentions. The financial memorandum states that 372,000 o...
Mr McAveety:
Lab
How do you respond to local authorities' concerns about the quality of the school meal that would be provided if there were universal provision of free schoo...
Frances Curran:
SSP
My figures are based on the good-quality meals that are currently provided in primary schools. Last week, Fergus Chambers said that in schools in Glasgow the...
Mr McAveety:
Lab
A further issue concerns the return for the money that is put in. One key concern consistently raised by COSLA is the overall commitment to meet the costs of...
Frances Curran:
SSP
The Education (School Meals etc) (Scotland) Bill is only one aspect of the action that we need to take. We are straying into policy now, but I do not mind—I ...
Mr McAveety:
Lab
I share Frances Curran's concern about those who are most in need. COSLA has said:"Targeting resources could reduce the overall cost of extending free meals ...
Frances Curran:
SSP
We had a major piece of research done on free school meals. It looked at targeting versus universality. That research, by Morelli and Seaman of the Universit...
Mr McAveety:
Lab
COSLA also mentioned using a "tax credit system to target groups who would genuinely benefit from a free meal."If we could do the targeting around the tax cr...
Frances Curran:
SSP
Not really. The benefits and tax system is really complex. It is quite difficult to define who would be eligible under the current tax system. The targeting ...
Mark Ballard (Lothians) (Green):
Green
On a visit to a citizens advice bureau, I was surprised to be told by the staff, who did some calculations, that I might be eligible for a bit of tax credit....
Frances Curran:
SSP
It does, but an increased cost of 12p per meal was the outcome of implementing the new nutrient standards under the hungry for success programme. The Scottis...
Mark Ballard:
Green
What is the £1.77 average cost per meal based on?
Frances Curran:
SSP
That is a local authority figure that was given to SPICe. It is the cost to local authorities of providing 53 million meals per year. It is local authorities...
Mark Ballard:
Green
You say that there will never be 100 per cent take-up and quote take-up figures of 65 to 70 per cent. Given that your aim is universal provision, why do you ...