Chamber
Plenary, 01 Feb 2006
01 Feb 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Council Tax Abolition and Service Tax Introduction (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As he demonstrated when asking a question of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body earlier, the previous speaker is obviously blinded by the exuberance of his own verbosity. However, he actually says little.
Some 21 per cent of pensioners are living below the Government's poverty level, but pensioners are asked to pay council tax at a level that is a tremendous percentage of their income, which is unacceptable. Tommy Sheridan's bill, although it is not perfect, has raised the issue and that is the important thing. He has highlighted in the Scottish Parliament the inequality and the unfairness of the council tax. How any MSP can stand by year after year and see the level of the income of their constituents being eroded by increases in council tax that are above the increases that senior citizens get in their pensions is beyond my comprehension. To agree with that policy is not acceptable to the people in a generation that Paul Martin rightly described as a proud generation. They pay their bills, but often do without necessities to do so. If there is a choice between heating and feeding themselves and paying their council tax, they will tighten their belts, turn the heating down and pay their council tax. That is what my generation is all about.
To condone the situation and to worsen it by twisting the knife and saying that a 7 per cent rise means nothing to many people is unacceptable. Some people who have to pay an extra 7 per cent on their council tax will go further into penury and poverty. That is not fair.
The council tax knows no barriers. It does not distinguish between Conservatives, nationalists, Labour Party members, Greens, Scottish socialists or independent MSPs. Everyone has to pay it apart from those who are found to be below the threshold when they are means tested. They get a 100 per cent exemption, which puts them in the same category as the 60 per cent who do not pay a penny for local services. Unless a person is a house owner, they do not pay council tax. Only 40 per cent of the population own houses and a fair percentage—I think that it is about 10 per cent or 11 per cent—do not pay council tax at all. David Davidson said that 29 per cent of people pay council tax. All the rest are freeloaders who live on the backs of people who can afford to pay council tax and pensioners who cannot.
The figures go on and on. I have many things written down on the pages before me. Honest to goodness, to listen to the verbiage that gets thrown around and the justifications for something that is so unjust—
There was a revolution in America based on the principle that there should be no taxation without representation. Should we take away the right to vote in local elections of people who do not pay council tax? The ideas of taxation and representation seem to be linked in the United States of America, but not in this country. Every council area is filled with freeloaders who pay nothing toward their amenities while pensioners get their arms twisted up their backs.
About £500 million of council tax is uncollected. How dilatory are the councils who are attempting to collect that money? The money could be collected through income tax. It costs 1.75p per pound to collect income tax, but it costs councils 4.5p to 7p in the pound to collect the unfair council tax, so it is not even financially viable. It is not a sensible way of collecting taxes and has proved to be a tremendous burden on senior citizens, in particular, and on other people on fixed incomes.
People talk about accountability. Councillors are judged on whether they perform the duties that they were elected to carry out—that is accountability. On universality, people ask why we should give a reduction to a poor pensioner when we do not give it to a rich pensioner, but family allowance is paid across the board to everyone who has children. Tony Blair gets family allowance for Leo. However, a pensioner who lives in a council house or a house of his own has to pay council tax. While we are deliberating and awaiting the independent review on local taxation, we should consider a 50 per cent reduction in council tax for all pensioners. Single pensioners who live alone, as many do, should pay only 25 per cent. I say to members: give pensioners a break, for goodness' sake, and justify your existence when they put their cross next to your name on the ballot paper. Show them some support and give them some help, because they badly need it.
Some 21 per cent of pensioners are living below the Government's poverty level, but pensioners are asked to pay council tax at a level that is a tremendous percentage of their income, which is unacceptable. Tommy Sheridan's bill, although it is not perfect, has raised the issue and that is the important thing. He has highlighted in the Scottish Parliament the inequality and the unfairness of the council tax. How any MSP can stand by year after year and see the level of the income of their constituents being eroded by increases in council tax that are above the increases that senior citizens get in their pensions is beyond my comprehension. To agree with that policy is not acceptable to the people in a generation that Paul Martin rightly described as a proud generation. They pay their bills, but often do without necessities to do so. If there is a choice between heating and feeding themselves and paying their council tax, they will tighten their belts, turn the heating down and pay their council tax. That is what my generation is all about.
To condone the situation and to worsen it by twisting the knife and saying that a 7 per cent rise means nothing to many people is unacceptable. Some people who have to pay an extra 7 per cent on their council tax will go further into penury and poverty. That is not fair.
The council tax knows no barriers. It does not distinguish between Conservatives, nationalists, Labour Party members, Greens, Scottish socialists or independent MSPs. Everyone has to pay it apart from those who are found to be below the threshold when they are means tested. They get a 100 per cent exemption, which puts them in the same category as the 60 per cent who do not pay a penny for local services. Unless a person is a house owner, they do not pay council tax. Only 40 per cent of the population own houses and a fair percentage—I think that it is about 10 per cent or 11 per cent—do not pay council tax at all. David Davidson said that 29 per cent of people pay council tax. All the rest are freeloaders who live on the backs of people who can afford to pay council tax and pensioners who cannot.
The figures go on and on. I have many things written down on the pages before me. Honest to goodness, to listen to the verbiage that gets thrown around and the justifications for something that is so unjust—
There was a revolution in America based on the principle that there should be no taxation without representation. Should we take away the right to vote in local elections of people who do not pay council tax? The ideas of taxation and representation seem to be linked in the United States of America, but not in this country. Every council area is filled with freeloaders who pay nothing toward their amenities while pensioners get their arms twisted up their backs.
About £500 million of council tax is uncollected. How dilatory are the councils who are attempting to collect that money? The money could be collected through income tax. It costs 1.75p per pound to collect income tax, but it costs councils 4.5p to 7p in the pound to collect the unfair council tax, so it is not even financially viable. It is not a sensible way of collecting taxes and has proved to be a tremendous burden on senior citizens, in particular, and on other people on fixed incomes.
People talk about accountability. Councillors are judged on whether they perform the duties that they were elected to carry out—that is accountability. On universality, people ask why we should give a reduction to a poor pensioner when we do not give it to a rich pensioner, but family allowance is paid across the board to everyone who has children. Tony Blair gets family allowance for Leo. However, a pensioner who lives in a council house or a house of his own has to pay council tax. While we are deliberating and awaiting the independent review on local taxation, we should consider a 50 per cent reduction in council tax for all pensioners. Single pensioners who live alone, as many do, should pay only 25 per cent. I say to members: give pensioners a break, for goodness' sake, and justify your existence when they put their cross next to your name on the ballot paper. Show them some support and give them some help, because they badly need it.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-3893, in the name of Tommy Sheridan, on the general principles of the Council Tax Abolition and Service T...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
Today's debate is about right and wrong, justice and injustice and the unacceptable twin scars of poverty and inequality, which continue to shame our country...
The Deputy Minister for Finance, Public Service Reform and Parliamentary Business (George Lyon):
LD
I thank the Local Government and Transport Committee for all its hard work in examining Tommy Sheridan's proposal to abolish the council tax and replace it w...
Frances Curran (West of Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
Will the member take an intervention?
George Lyon:
LD
I will make some progress, if the member does not mind.The committee's findings have exposed the fact that the bill represents the greatest gamble since Char...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
Does Mr Lyon accept that, if the service tax was introduced and a national rate of taxation for local authorities was to be set, that would give ministers su...
George Lyon:
LD
I thank Mr Swinney for that intervention, which highlights why we oppose the bill. The taxation level would be decided in the Parliament instead of at the lo...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
The debate is about a two-part proposal. The first is the abolition of the council tax and the second is its replacement with a Scottish service tax. I will ...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
For the sake of the debate, will the member tell us how much additional money the SNP believes the Scottish Executive should give to the local authorities?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
It is obvious that Mr Rumbles was not present on 12 January when, to many complaints from Labour members, I spoke for 18 minutes and gave an extensive explan...
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Will the member just tell us?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I am just getting to it. I was going to give a long explanation so that Mr Rumbles would get a flavour of the excellence of that speech, in which I said that...
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Where would the money come from?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
The member should know that it is more courteous to get up to intervene than it is to shout from the back benches. Of course, his Liberal colleagues on the f...
Mike Rumbles:
LD
Ah. It is coming from nowhere.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
If Mr Rumbles is sceptical about that point, I suggest that he speak to the Liberal Democrat administration in Aberdeenshire, which has made relatively simil...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
Will the member take an intervention?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
We have heard enough from the Liberals today. We finished off Mr Purvis the last time and we would do it again in a moment.We believe that the council tax is...
Carolyn Leckie (Central Scotland) (SSP):
SSP
For how long has it been Scottish National Party policy to support the abolition of the council tax? Where is the SNP's bill to abolish it?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
The SNP has supported the abolition of the council tax for a considerable time, and we produced a paper on the introduction of a local income tax. The SNP wa...
Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD) rose—
LD
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Mr Swinney is in his last minute.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
Who would suffer if this Administration was able to exert even more control over local authority finance? The usual people would suffer: children with specia...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
I congratulate the Local Government and Transport Committee on its conclusion, which it reached as a result of some excellent evidence sessions, and I thank ...
Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab):
Lab
I want to make one point in response to Tommy Sheridan's speech. I asked before how much people on £25,000 would pay in Scottish service tax. Tommy Sheridan ...
Frances Curran:
SSP
How much does the member get?
Bristow Muldoon:
Lab
Exactly the same as other members do. The Council Tax Abolition and Service Tax Introduction (Scotland) Bill is the most ill-considered and poorly researched...
Frances Curran:
SSP
Will Bristow Muldoon give way?
Bristow Muldoon:
Lab
Not just now. I want to make some progress.
Frances Curran:
SSP
Come on. He should give way.