Holyrood, made browsable

Hansard

Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

129
Current MSPs
415
MSPs ever elected
13
Parties on record
2,354,908
Hansard contributions
1999–2026
Coverage span
Official Report

Search Hansard contributions

Showing 60 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
04 Nov 2004
Pensioners
It is a long while since I have heard so much rubbish spoken in this place. For decades, I have watched in sheer disbelief as successive Governments of various political persuasions have proposed and adopted policies relating to senior citizens' pensions, all resulting in the ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
05 Oct 2006
Senior Citizens
I start by thanking Annabel Goldie and the Conservative and Unionist Party for allocating time this morning to debate this very important issue. I also thank Annabel for her very kind words. They will make no difference to my attitude towards her policies, but I appreciate the...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
05 Oct 2006
Senior Citizens
At the most recent census, in 2001, there were 514,682 senior citizen households in Scotland, 220,868 of which were in rented accommodation. In the rented sector, 80 per cent were in receipt of housing benefit which, by and large, also took care of their council tax. That make...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
11 Mar 2004
Pensioner Poverty
All political parties are starting to worry. The hitherto placid pensioners are on the move. Grey power is sending out the message, and pensioners are starting to realise that they are capable of exercising political power. That will increase year after year, as the demographi...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
13 Sep 2005
Equality Bill
Do not get me wrong. The word "Unity" in the Scottish Senior Citizen's Unity Party's title means that we are quite content to be part of the union. At the same time, however, I feel that people in this Parliament are like turkeys voting for Christmas. They are getting rid of t...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
13 Apr 2005
Scotland's Needs and Aspirations
This is the first time that a plenary meeting has been held on a Wednesday morning in our new Parliament. Our motion will, I hope, bring another first. It calls on the Parliament to consider and then meet"the needs and aspirations of people in Scotland."One of the aims of the ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
18 May 2006
National Health Service<br />(Future Needs)
There is no doubt that in future the Kerr report will be regarded as a turning point for the better in the long history of the NHS in Scotland. In many ways, the report is visionary and, as such, it has caused controversy and debate in many areas of the NHS. The attempts at ra...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
05 Nov 2003
Transport
I welcome the opportunity to highlight the transport problems that senior citizens in Scotland experience. The elderly do not seek priority in transport; they simply hope that the Executive will finally deliver on its pre-election promises and that senior citizens in Scotland ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
23 Dec 2004
Budget Process 2005-06
One feature of the Finance Committee is the enormous amount of reading material that every member is engulfed with on a weekly basis. If I were to quote from 0.05 per cent of that material today, I would be on my feet for many hours. The financial data and information are over...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
23 Dec 2004
Budget Process 2005-06
I can say that the only thing wrong with the poll tax was the fact that it did not take people who could not pay out of the system in the way that council tax currently does. If that had been written in, it would have been far fairer than the existing council tax, because ever...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
26 Jan 2005
Older People
The minister identified many positive and forward-looking measures, which are greatly appreciated by senior citizens, but much more is required. I was taken back to the heady days—perhaps I should say the sore-heady days—of Harold Macmillan, who said that we had never had it s...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
13 Dec 2005
Disability Inquiry
I am the Scottish Senior Citizens Unity Party list MSP for Central Scotland.
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
20 Jan 2004
Local Governance (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
You are talking about £1.5 million for public awareness. Do you agree that we are talking about typical politicians patronising the electorate? We heard our convener ask whether the people out there who are marking crosses or numbers are qualified to do so. The people out ther...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
01 Oct 2003
Mainstreaming Equality
I did not intend to speak today, but the quality of the debate has been excellent and there have been some superb speeches. Occasionally, one stumbles across a debate that is way above the level of the usual turgid debates that take place here. This is one such debate, and it ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
09 Oct 2003
Question Time · Prejudice
That is interesting. In Lanarkshire, on 22 October, we will go through an exercise involving the police, the Scottish Senior Citizens Unity Party and a group of schoolchildren. We will be implementing exactly what Donald Gorrie was suggesting. It is on drugs—
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
02 Nov 2006
Financial Powers <br />(Scottish Parliament)
I have always believed in the principle of fiscal autonomy, but I came to the first debate this morning with an open mind. However, after hearing the Executive's illogical statements about the Howat review of the Executive's budget, I am more convinced than ever that we must h...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
07 Dec 2004
Efficient Government
The minister would probably agree that it is wrong to argue about who has the highest target for savings, because there should be no limit to the savings to which we should aspire in the long run.We have a lot of computers in this country and various organisations that do not ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
25 Sep 2003
European Constitution
In the event of the UK's adoption of a single European currency, stringent legislation would have to be introduced to avoid the pitfalls of the last currency change in the UK. The introduction of decimalisation just over 30 years ago coincided with an overall hike in the cost ...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
25 Sep 2003
Question Time · Concessionary Travel
Does the minister agree that it is unacceptable for senior citizens to be removed from buses part way to their destination because their concessionary passes are not valid across local authority boundaries?Other countries whose institutions have fewer powers than the Scottish ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
09 Dec 2004
Excess Winter Deaths
I thank Margaret Ewing for securing the debate. I lodged a motion on the subject, which was debated earlier this year. It is a sad reflection on the lack of consideration and care that is given to elderly people in this country that we are again debating the matter.Perhaps mor...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Committee
28 Sep 2004
Water Industry
The document that I have in front of me says that the minister would, under the bill, continue to set objectives for Scottish Water and to define the principles of charging that the commission must follow in setting charging limits. Earlier in your discourse you talked about t...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
09 Nov 2005
New Petitions
Yes, but that figure related to the number of senior citizens who own their own home—4 per cent of the 67 per cent of senior citizens who own their own home find themselves in that position. When the broader picture is taken into account, the number involved is small.
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
28 May 2003
Scottish Executive's Programme
I thoroughly enjoyed the First Minister's statement on the Executive's programme—much of which I agree with—but it seemed to contain a sin of omission. Twenty-five per cent of the population of Scotland are senior citizens, but "A Partnership for a Better Scotland" contains 79...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
26 Jun 2003
Subordinate Legislation
I had thought that I would be off the hook today. I thought, "Landfill sites—senior citizens—easy." But, no, a delegation of senior citizens from Stewartfield in East Kilbride dropped in last week—they had picked up from the internet that the landfill regulations would be disc...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
04 Sep 2003
Closing the Opportunity Gap
I warmly welcome the laudable sentiments in Margaret Curran's motion. I cannot take exception to any part of it. I welcome the fact that poverty and how it should be addressed has been highlighted as the key factor.I refer to poverty in all its forms. Those include the single ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
17 Dec 2003
Budget Process 2004-05: Stage 2
It is a great pleasure to take part in this exciting debate. When I first became an MSP, I was consigned to the Finance Committee—a thought that I abhorred—but I must say that it has been enlightening. The committee is made up of lovely people and it does tremendous background...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
08 Jan 2004
Housing
Tommy Sheridan and, to a lesser extent, Murray Tosh called for sustained investment in local authority house building, which would enable 10,000 new homes to be built per annum. That laudable scheme could be completely self-financing, after an initial input by the Scottish Exe...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
15 Jan 2004
European Commission<br />(Work Programme)
Having listened to the debate for the best part of two hours, I must ask whether senior citizens have been disfranchised from Europe. Senior citizens, who represent a quarter of Europe's electorate, have not been mentioned in today's debate.
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
11 Mar 2004
Winter Cold-related Deaths
I believe that those figures are due to excessive wine drinking in those hot countries, but I assure the minister that the cold kills people in Scotland.Recent research by Energy Action Scotland and the University of Strathclyde showed that excess winter deaths correlate to mu...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
16 Jun 2004
Transport
Will the minister look at the problem that I have raised before about senior citizens going from A to B—from Edinburgh to Glasgow, or vice versa, for example—and finding that, when they reach the boundary of the travel scheme area, they are decanted from the bus and have to st...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
30 Sep 2004
SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE · National Concessionary Travel Scheme
I am not sure that senior citizens will be happy with the delay. However, will the minister seriously consider the urgent introduction of smart cards for senior citizens in order to bring a halt to the exploitation and abuse of the limited free travel for the elderly and other...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
22 Dec 2004
Concessionary Fares
Does the minister agree that, while his statement will be widely welcomed by senior citizens, further resources will be required to ensure that every senior citizen benefits from the national concessionary bus travel scheme, including those who live in remote locations? Will h...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
14 Apr 2005
Council Tax
I am pleased to hear the problems of senior citizens being so thoroughly addressed by this Assembly. All forms of taxation are highly unpopular. However, the main criteria for all types of taxation, if they are to be generally accepted, are: the ability to pay; a fair rate acr...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
12 Jan 2006
Local Government Finance
It would take some kind of twisted genius to devise a method of taxation that was worse than the council tax, which is a basically flawed system of taxation. It is people, not houses, who use services. On average, since the council tax's inception, a staggering 7.5 per cent of...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
01 Feb 2006
Council Tax Abolition and Service Tax Introduction (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As he demonstrated when asking a question of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body earlier, the previous speaker is obviously blinded by the exuberance of his own verbosity. However, he actually says little.Some 21 per cent of pensioners are living below the Government's p...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
16 Mar 2006
Make Poverty History
In this life, we get only what we pay for; all politicians have to face up to that reality. If we are to fund future pensions, which must be paid without means testing, we must opt for a realistic increase in national insurance contributions. No matter how unpopular it would b...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
05 Oct 2006
Senior Citizens
I like the 50 per cent reduction in council tax for pensioners that the Conservative motion proposes for 2007, but I would prefer the council tax to be replaced with a tax that is fairer for all. I also like the call for the full implementation of the free personal care polici...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
05 Oct 2006
Senior Citizens
As I suggested earlier, I care not which party adopts our policies. In the fullness of time, they will inevitably become accepted as the only fair way to treat our senior citizens. Until that comes to pass—
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
30 Nov 2006
SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE · Swimming Pool Charges (Senior Citizens)
Does the minister agree that swimming, particularly by elderly people, should be encouraged by councils? Will the minister join me in deploring the 320 per cent increase in charges to senior citizens for access to swimming baths in North Lanarkshire? Charges have been increase...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
25 Jan 2007
First Minister's Question Time · Senior Citizens (Poverty)
Does the First Minister agree that fuel poverty among the elderly is a national disgrace? Fuel bills have doubled over the past three years. Since June 2006, wholesale prices of gas have dropped by more than 60 per cent, but no reduction has been offered to the consumer. Fuel ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
29 Mar 2007
The Future of Scotland
An election is coming up. It must be inspirational for any pensioner who is tuned in to today's debate to hear how much all the parties are going to do for senior citizens. The Tories talked about taking 50 per cent off council tax. The SNP will take a number of pensioners out...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
21 Feb 2006
Equalities Review
I will be brief, and I am sorry to take up the committee's time. I will read out this paper as quickly as I can. It is for consideration by the Equal Opportunities Committee, with regard to the proposed schedule.I would like to take issue with the basic fact that the most impo...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
31 Oct 2006
Budget Process 2007-08
It is about equal opportunities for senior citizens. They are being evicted and thrown out on the street. If I cannot raise the issue in the Equal Opportunities Committee, where can I raise it?
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
31 Oct 2006
Equalities Review
Both reports highlight the central role of the media in relation to prejudice and discrimination and the urgent need to tackle them. Page 44 of the public attitudes report states:"The Citizens' Forum participants identified the need to challenge negative accounts in the media,...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
20 Mar 2007
Age Strategy
Thank you, convener. My statement will be even shorter than I thought it would be.The strategy is strong on volunteering, because that involves people doing good work at no cost to the state. Because there are insufficient nursery and pre-school places, some parents have to le...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Committee
23 Sep 2003
Scottish Parliament Building Project
We have had an interesting hour this morning. I did not come into politics to listen to platitudes and excuses and to be patronised by Robert Brown as being one of the four new members who should be brought up to speed by him on matters relating to this fiasco.In the past few ...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
10 Nov 2003
Subordinate Legislation
After being serious all day, I compliment Richard Dennis on the cavalier manner with which he dealt with the matter of pensions for civil servants. Is there any chance of getting him transferred to look after senior citizens' pensions credits? That would be greatly appreciated.
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
03 Feb 2004
Scottish Water
There has been talk of a 10 per cent increase in efficiency, value for money, how we cannot compete with Victorian civil engineering projects, and how we are 150 years behind what the Victorians could do. Then we come to the water commissioner being surplus to requirements. Th...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Committee
25 May 2004
Point of Order
I point out that the committee did not agree to the report unanimously. I stated from day one that I would not associate myself with the report and the forthcoming bill, because anything that disadvantages senior citizens will never get a vote from me.
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Committee
09 Sep 2004
Water Services etc (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
As always, I have sat and listened to beautiful rhetoric and must try to separate the wheat from the chaff and, as usual, there is more chaff than wheat.Alan Sutherland said that the budget is"tight, but it is manageable".The budget of the people whom I represent is tight, but...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
09 Nov 2004
Budget Process 2005-06
As far as my generation is concerned, a national concessionary fares scheme would be a tremendous leap forward. Will it include ferries as well as bus travel? Does the minister agree that abuse of the system—which is currently rampant, by the way—whereby rogue bus companies tr...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Committee
23 Nov 2004
Transport (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum
I am interested in concessionary travel. Reports that I receive suggest that the phantom passenger is the biggest problem that the transport industry in Scotland faces; companies are making a killing and augmenting their income from local authorities by saying that passengers ...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
05 Jun 2003
Young People
I am glad that I made the effort to get here in time, because Peter Peacock's opening speech was superb. At the risk of sounding sycophantic, if more members attained that level, the Parliament would be a far better debating house.Although I agree with several of the many poin...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
12 Jun 2003
Europe
I have listened patiently to all the arguments from all the major parties, but the only member who mentioned the most serious implication of Europe was Phil Gallie. He used the F-phrase: fiscal autonomy. Without fiscal autonomy, we are kidding ourselves if we think that we hav...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
19 Jun 2003
Water Industry
I have listened patiently and I have not heard one word about senior citizens. Council tax took away one third of the most recent rise in their pension. They spend a disproportionate amount on water rates all the time. That situation is far more important to them than is the p...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
19 Jun 2003
Care Homes for the Elderly
I thank David Davidson for using the Conservatives' parliamentary time to raise one of the issues on which our party fought the recent election. Residential care was one of the most sensitive issues that was raised at our meetings and we touched a raw nerve among the elderly e...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
18 Sep 2003
Improving Scotland's Health
On that point, I will have sat here for 4 hours and 20 minutes but have had no opportunity to represent senior citizens in today's debate, which is shameful. It would not take rocket science for the Presiding Officer to curtail everyone's time slightly to give us all a chance ...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
04 Dec 2003
Question Time · Older People (Financial Security)
Does the minister agree that the average council tax bill represents more than 25 per cent of the basic state pension but only 3.5 per cent of gross annual earnings? The Executive's omission of a target on dealing with the unfair impact of the council tax on pensioners means t...
John Swinburne: SSCUP Chamber
11 Dec 2003
Public Services
Give me a second, please.I had the operation at my own cost, without any insurance. That motivated me more than probably anything else to come into the political arena to see whether I could do anything to help senior citizens who suffer the unbearable pain of arthritis or who...
6. John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP): SSCUP Chamber
18 Dec 2003
Question Time · Senior Citizens (Energy Charges)
To ask the Scottish Executive whether it has made any representations to energy companies on reducing charges for services to senior citizens. (S2O-964)
← Back to list
Chamber

Plenary, 04 Nov 2004

04 Nov 2004 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Pensioners
Swinburne, John SSCUP Central Scotland Watch on SPTV
It is a long while since I have heard so much rubbish spoken in this place. For decades, I have watched in sheer disbelief as successive Governments of various political persuasions have proposed and adopted policies relating to senior citizens' pensions, all resulting in the continuation of pensioner poverty. It has become politically correct and acceptable to propose policies that are guaranteed to continue and even exacerbate the impoverishment of senior citizens, many of whom are vulnerable and frail and, quite frankly, have been shamefully let down by every governing party since the war.

Now, lo and behold, the SNP has woken up to the fact that there are a number of disillusioned grey voters out there and that, if it does not move to rectify the situation, it could cause countless senior citizens to switch off and turn away from the SNP. It is laudable that the SNP has noted that there is a problem; other parties do not even want us to talk about the problem.

I say to Gordon Brown—or Andrew Smith—that the flagship policy of pension credits has failed miserably. Due to its means testing, there has been a pathetic uptake of only 53 per cent, not the figure quoted earlier. Fifty-three per cent might have been enough to see George Bush re-elected, but I say to Gordon Brown, "Don't hold your breath."

To be impartial and fair, the same Gordon Brown has done a splendid job in bringing virtually full employment back to the UK. Nevertheless, the history books will show that he has been an abject failure with regard to pensioners' conditions. Means testing is his flagship policy, and not only has it failed miserably, but it costs a fortune to implement. Forty-seven per cent of my generation refuse to jump through hoops for a sad pittance. They proudly refuse to parade their poverty and virtually beg for the just pension that should be theirs by right.

The SNP deserves credit for proposing the abolition of means testing. However, I would advise it to get back to the drawing board because, according to the media—the figure has not been quoted here today—its target is a pension for all, initially, of £106 a week, or £5,532 per annum, without means testing. That is a benefit. The guaranteed minimum wage is £4.85 an hour, which equates to £194 a week, or £10,088 per annum. Why should a pensioner be expected to live on roughly half the guaranteed minimum wage? Age Concern commissioned a university study, which concluded that £160 a week was the minimum amount required to allow a pensioner simply to make ends meet. That princely sum would not allow them to run a car, go on holiday, smoke, drink, or have a wee flutter at the bingo or on the horses. That is the minimum amount that would allow them simply to make ends meet on a weekly basis. That is why the Scottish Senior Citizens Unity Party demands £160, index linked to earnings—or to the cost of living, whichever is the greater—to give all our senior citizens back their dignity. It is well within the capability of the fourth richest economy in the world to pay senior citizens £8,320 per annum.

Where will the money come from? The answer is easy: bring back our troops from Iraq, scrap Trident and tell Tony Blair that the cold war is over, or set aside a larger percentage of our gross domestic product. Currently, the percentage stands at 5.5 per cent, which is the second lowest of fifteen European countries. Austria allocates 14.5 per cent, Greece 12.6 per cent—this is beginning to sound like the Eurovision song contest—Germany 11.8 per cent and Sweden 9 per cent. Sadly, Gordon Brown boasts that his long-term plan is to reduce our share of GDP from 5.5 per cent to 4.4 per cent, while every other country will greatly increase its share. Other countries are planning ahead—they realise that a demographic time bomb is ticking—but Gordon Brown simply ignores the problem and hopes that it will go away.

Gordon Brown refuses to increase income tax for the mega-rich by pegging the top rate at 40 per cent, while idly watching as 2,500 senior citizens in Scotland die winter-related deaths. Our Executive has a praiseworthy free central heating scheme for the elderly, but, sadly, Gordon Brown has negated that good scheme by ensuring that all too many pensioners simply cannot afford to switch their heating on. He should get real, for goodness' sake. Members should not talk about the £200 winter allowance, by the way, which equates to just £4 per week on top of a miserable pension of about £70.

Pensioners in Shotts high-security prison enjoy facilities that many senior citizens would dearly love to have. The criminals enjoy three square meals per day, free central heating, double glazing, en suite toilet facilities, games rooms, libraries, free televisions and so on at a cost of £30,000 per annum each. Senior citizens, the vast majority of whom have never committed any crime, receive a free television licence when they reach 75 years. If they qualify for pension credit, they receive £5,460 per annum. We are the good guys and the criminals are the bad guys. Pensioners who are taken into residential care, which often falls short of the Shotts standard, might have their home sold to pay the cost of keeping them in residential care. It is not so for the murderer or rapist in Shotts high-security rest home. This is an ill-divided world.

What on earth has happened to the suffragette spirit among our opposite sex? In 1909, Lloyd George—a good Liberal—instigated the first ever old-age pension scheme. The average working wage was just over 12 shillings per week. On reaching 70, a pension of 5 shillings per week was paid to both men and women. In the 21st century, we find ourselves with men getting 100 per cent, while a spouse receives a mere 50 per cent. Thankfully, Nicola Sturgeon addressed that issue. It is high time that the rest of the ladies who rightly complain about the inferior rates that women are paid for the same work in the workplace started suffragetting once more and put an end to this inequality nonsense. The SSCUP demands £160 per week for both men and women—there are no second-class members of our party. Can any other party make the same boast?

When people reach 80, their pension rises by a massive 25p per week. That is not even enough to buy a first-class stamp to write and complain about the insult, yet these are the people who were on the beachheads on D day and who landed at Arnhem and so on—they are the heroes. Ministers will stand there in a week's time with crocodile tears running down their faces when, in far too many instances, they have pensioners in total poverty.

Politicians seem to be completely unaware of the massive problem that faces the elderly in our country. I say to politicians: neglect the elderly at your peril. They have had as much as they are prepared to take from politicians and they are starting to fight back. Uncaring political parties continue to ignore our plight at their peril; the elderly can and will strike back by putting their cross elsewhere in future. Grey power will triumph in adversity—just watch this space.

I move amendment S2M-1940.2, to insert at end:

"and restore the link, broken in 1982, between pensions and average national earnings."

In the same item of business

The Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid): NPA
Good morning. The first item of business is a debate on motion S2M-1940, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, on a better deal for pensioners, and four amendments...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP): SNP
I begin by expressing my total incredulity at the fact that, as I understand it, no Scottish Executive minister is prepared to take part in the debate. Minis...
The Minister for Communities (Malcolm Chisholm): Lab
First, the member will hear that I am preserving my voice for this afternoon's debate. Secondly, she will note that all the amendments are party amendments, ...
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
There is no Executive position on the matter of pensioner poverty. That says absolutely everything that needs to be said.
Malcolm Chisholm rose— Lab
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
Unless the minister has something better to say, I will let him preserve his voice.Tackling pensioner poverty should be a priority of the Executive, because ...
The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Ms Margaret Curran): Lab
I am fascinated by the tactics of the Scottish National Party. Every time that it has an Opposition debate, it chooses to debate reserved issues. In doing so...
The Presiding Officer: NPA
Order.
Ms Curran: Lab
Let me be absolutely clear. Charges have been laid at the Executive's door that I must answer.
The Presiding Officer: NPA
Briefly, please.
Ms Curran: Lab
With the greatest respect, Presiding Officer, it is taking me so long because members are shouting and I am being forced to repeat myself.
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
Come on.
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
This is a speech.
Ms Curran: Lab
If members will stop shouting at me, I will speak and Nicola Sturgeon will be able to get on with her speech.
The Presiding Officer: NPA
Please be brief.
Ms Curran: Lab
The Executive's position is that we tackle pensioner poverty using the powers that we have. Nicola Sturgeon is talking about reserved powers. She should at l...
The Presiding Officer: NPA
The member may take another two to three minutes.
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
If Margaret Curran had wanted to speak in the debate, she should have put her name on the list of speakers. Pensions policy may be reserved, but poverty is n...
George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD) rose— LD
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
I will not take an intervention at the moment. I may come back to the member later, after I have made some progress.I want first to deal with the issue of pe...
George Lyon: LD
We welcome the SNP's adoption of our policies on this issue. The net cost of the SNP's policy of having a citizens pension for all over 65 would be about £8....
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
If George Lyon will be patient, I will explain in great detail exactly how we will fund it, so he should listen carefully. I hope that Liberal Democrat membe...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD) rose— LD
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
I will not give way at the moment.The pensioners to whom I referred end up feeling no better off for having scrimped and saved throughout their lives. That s...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): LD
Will the member answer George Lyon's question?
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
I must make some progress. I am sure that the Liberal Democrats will have a chance to tell us all about their policy later.A citizens pension would be a soli...
Mike Rumbles: LD
How would the member pay for the citizens pension?
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
I am coming to that.It is only right that I pause to consider the Tory amendment, which also calls for the link between pensions and earnings to be restored....
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) rose— Con
Nicola Sturgeon: SNP
The Conservatives should sit down and listen. I remind Brian Monteith of what benefit that vindictive act of the Thatcher Government delivered to Scottish pe...