Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 24 November 2010
24 Nov 2010 · S3 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Scottish Variable Rate of Income Tax
During the past few years under a minority Government, we have learned of many examples from previous parliamentary sessions of the roles and responsibilities of the Parliament and the Government becoming conflated, because in practice the Government of the day commanded a majority in the Parliament. Of course, there is an important distinction between the role of the Executive and the role of the Parliament. That is not a constitutional nicety but the foundation of the authority on which the Scottish Government sits and the foundation of how the Scottish Parliament operates.
The issue that we debate today is perhaps the most glaring example of ministers’ ability to take decisions over which the Parliament might properly think that it should have oversight, although it has become apparent that in practice there is no parliamentary oversight.
The Scottish Government is a minority Government. When it was formed, many people expected it to fall quickly. It could have fallen at any point, and could still fall relatively easily. Ministers should not lightly take decisions that have far-reaching consequences, because they might not remain ministers even during the current parliamentary session.
When we consider the background to the powers on the standard variable rate, it is interesting to consider the rules that apply to the Parliament. It is clear—and I do not dispute—that nothing in the standing orders of the Parliament, the Scotland Act 1998 or any of our written procedures requires the Government to tell us about the decision that it took in 2007. However, that is odd, because there are detailed rules in standing orders about tax-varying resolutions. For example, only a member of the Scottish Government may lodge a tax-varying resolution, which must be approved by the Parliament, and if it is the foundation of a budget bill and is voted down, the budget falls.
A written agreement in 2005 between the Scottish Government and the Finance Committee, which clearly has the locus on the SVR, covers the budget process but is silent on the SVR. We had a review of the budget process earlier in this session of the Parliament, and the issue never arose. Why? Because no one ever thought that the decision that the Scottish Government took could be taken. It was never a prospect. It is perhaps unfortunate that we did not think about that, but it is regrettable that the Scottish Government did not tell us what was happening.
Patrick Harvie, who rather spoiled his speech towards the end when he laid into the UK Government, made a valid distinction about the power to exercise the SVR in practice. I accept that the provisions in the Scotland Act 1998 have not changed, but the referendum was on the power and, in practice if not in law, surely that power must be retained by the Parliament unless the Scottish people determine otherwise. There is a clear distinction between the legislation and the power, just as there is a clear distinction between the political decision on whether to exercise the power and its availability.
The thing that troubles me most about the issue is why the Parliament was not told at the beginning of the session about the cabinet secretary’s decision. I still do not understand that; perhaps the cabinet secretary will explain it better when he concludes. If the cabinet secretary had come to Parliament to explain the position, and if the Parliament had had the opportunity to debate the issue and take a view on whether the payments should be made or HMRC was acting unreasonably, the current mess would not have arisen. We would have had our say and taken a view, and the Government would have kept Parliament informed.
I am struck by the timeline—although I must say that I do not know whether this is a partial timeline. The First Minister’s letter of last week refers to the establishment of the system and payment of £12 million in 2000. The letter from HMRC dated 27 April 2007, which has been released today, refers to a project board that met “last month”, which is March 2007. That indicates that certain decisions needed to be taken in 2007. The First Minister’s letter talks about decisions in 2007 and states that in 2008 HMRC sought further money. The timeline then goes to July 2010, when, the First Minister says, the Government was asked for £7 million, and it finally ends on 20 August 2010, when, the First Minister says, the Scottish Government offered talks about which it has heard nothing.
I would like clarity from the cabinet secretary. Given that we now have from the First Minister details of what happened in 2000 and 2010, and we have one letter and a briefing note for ministers from the permanent secretary from April 2007, is the cabinet secretary prepared to release all of the correspondence and project board minutes in the timeline? Until we see the full timeline and every piece of correspondence, we cannot be sure that we are not being given simply a partial story. Given the Parliament’s lack of faith in the Government’s decision, the clarity and transparency that would be provided by publishing the information in full would be helpful.
I say to Christine Grahame in passing that the Calman commission was established by a vote of the Parliament. She may not like that fact, but it was the will of this Parliament that the Calman commission should exist.
I end simply on one point. Other members have called for an apology, and the cabinet secretary can consider whether he wants to give one more fully than he did in his opening speech. Much more important to me than an apology is that we get some answers. We need to get to the bottom of the issue, some clarity on who took decisions and when, and the full publication of all the correspondence in the public domain, so that we and the public can draw conclusions.
15:43
The issue that we debate today is perhaps the most glaring example of ministers’ ability to take decisions over which the Parliament might properly think that it should have oversight, although it has become apparent that in practice there is no parliamentary oversight.
The Scottish Government is a minority Government. When it was formed, many people expected it to fall quickly. It could have fallen at any point, and could still fall relatively easily. Ministers should not lightly take decisions that have far-reaching consequences, because they might not remain ministers even during the current parliamentary session.
When we consider the background to the powers on the standard variable rate, it is interesting to consider the rules that apply to the Parliament. It is clear—and I do not dispute—that nothing in the standing orders of the Parliament, the Scotland Act 1998 or any of our written procedures requires the Government to tell us about the decision that it took in 2007. However, that is odd, because there are detailed rules in standing orders about tax-varying resolutions. For example, only a member of the Scottish Government may lodge a tax-varying resolution, which must be approved by the Parliament, and if it is the foundation of a budget bill and is voted down, the budget falls.
A written agreement in 2005 between the Scottish Government and the Finance Committee, which clearly has the locus on the SVR, covers the budget process but is silent on the SVR. We had a review of the budget process earlier in this session of the Parliament, and the issue never arose. Why? Because no one ever thought that the decision that the Scottish Government took could be taken. It was never a prospect. It is perhaps unfortunate that we did not think about that, but it is regrettable that the Scottish Government did not tell us what was happening.
Patrick Harvie, who rather spoiled his speech towards the end when he laid into the UK Government, made a valid distinction about the power to exercise the SVR in practice. I accept that the provisions in the Scotland Act 1998 have not changed, but the referendum was on the power and, in practice if not in law, surely that power must be retained by the Parliament unless the Scottish people determine otherwise. There is a clear distinction between the legislation and the power, just as there is a clear distinction between the political decision on whether to exercise the power and its availability.
The thing that troubles me most about the issue is why the Parliament was not told at the beginning of the session about the cabinet secretary’s decision. I still do not understand that; perhaps the cabinet secretary will explain it better when he concludes. If the cabinet secretary had come to Parliament to explain the position, and if the Parliament had had the opportunity to debate the issue and take a view on whether the payments should be made or HMRC was acting unreasonably, the current mess would not have arisen. We would have had our say and taken a view, and the Government would have kept Parliament informed.
I am struck by the timeline—although I must say that I do not know whether this is a partial timeline. The First Minister’s letter of last week refers to the establishment of the system and payment of £12 million in 2000. The letter from HMRC dated 27 April 2007, which has been released today, refers to a project board that met “last month”, which is March 2007. That indicates that certain decisions needed to be taken in 2007. The First Minister’s letter talks about decisions in 2007 and states that in 2008 HMRC sought further money. The timeline then goes to July 2010, when, the First Minister says, the Government was asked for £7 million, and it finally ends on 20 August 2010, when, the First Minister says, the Scottish Government offered talks about which it has heard nothing.
I would like clarity from the cabinet secretary. Given that we now have from the First Minister details of what happened in 2000 and 2010, and we have one letter and a briefing note for ministers from the permanent secretary from April 2007, is the cabinet secretary prepared to release all of the correspondence and project board minutes in the timeline? Until we see the full timeline and every piece of correspondence, we cannot be sure that we are not being given simply a partial story. Given the Parliament’s lack of faith in the Government’s decision, the clarity and transparency that would be provided by publishing the information in full would be helpful.
I say to Christine Grahame in passing that the Calman commission was established by a vote of the Parliament. She may not like that fact, but it was the will of this Parliament that the Calman commission should exist.
I end simply on one point. Other members have called for an apology, and the cabinet secretary can consider whether he wants to give one more fully than he did in his opening speech. Much more important to me than an apology is that we get some answers. We need to get to the bottom of the issue, some clarity on who took decisions and when, and the full publication of all the correspondence in the public domain, so that we and the public can draw conclusions.
15:43
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson)
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-7477, in the name of John Swinney, on the Scottish variable rate of income tax. I advise members that tim...
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney)
SNP
Members will recognise that I normally take a number of interventions when contributing to parliamentary debates. Today I must place complex detail on the re...
Jack McConnell (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Lab
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. This is a debate rather than a ministerial statement, which must be a matter of regret to some of us. Will you clarif...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
I am sure that, like other members, Lord McConnell is aware that it is entirely for the member who has the floor to decide whether to take interventions. I h...
John Swinney
SNP
In the past few days, a number of criticisms have been levelled at the Government on the issue of the Scottish variable rate of income tax. First, it has bee...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
LD
Will the member take an intervention on that point?
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The cabinet secretary has made it clear that he is not taking interventions.
Mike Rumbles
LD
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Correct me if I am mistaken, but that does not imply that we cannot try to get Mr Swinney to take interventions.
The Presiding Officer
NPA
That is correct, but the cabinet secretary made it clear to you that he was not taking your intervention.
John Swinney
SNP
In May 2007, in one of the first briefings that I received, I was informed that the SVR project was “mothballed” in 2000, and I was presented with three opti...
Mike Rumbles
LD
Will the minister take an intervention on this point, if I try again?
John Swinney
SNP
The £50,000 a year that was paid by the previous Scottish Executive kept the database of taxpayers up to date, but not the IT system. It would have cost the ...
Mike Rumbles
LD
I thank the minister for finance for giving way. Can he tell the Parliament today why it has taken him three and a half years to address this point to the Pa...
John Swinney
SNP
If Mr Rumbles will forgive me, I am coming to that matter, and I will address it at the right point in my remarks.Scottish Government officials undertook to ...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab)
Lab
The finance secretary will remember that I specifically asked him on 9 September what was preventing him from introducing 1p, 2p or 3p of additional tax. He ...
John Swinney
SNP
Lord Foulkes will forgive me—I am thankful that I am not the script writer for his speeches.To be clear, HMRC was asking for an additional £7 million to re-e...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Order.
John Swinney
SNP
As the process of dialogue with HMRC became more and more protracted between 2008 and 2010, I could have come to the Parliament and explained the difficulty....
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
LD
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
The Presiding Officer
NPA
No. The cabinet secretary should be winding up.
John Swinney
SNP
Those judgments have been called into question. I made those judgments in good faith, for the reasons that I have set out, but I express my regret to the Par...
Iain Gray (East Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
The Government has lodged an extraordinary motion. It seeks to justify the deliberate and—as it turns out—secret disempowerment of this Parliament. Our claim...
John Swinney
SNP
Would Mr Gray reflect on the point that I have put on record today—that when I came into office the Scottish variable rate power was not operable because the...
Iain Gray
Lab
The point is—Interruption.
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Order.
Iain Gray
Lab
The point is that the £50,000 annual payment had been made year in, year out in order to sustain the system. As for the argument that the choice was made onl...
Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Iain Gray
Lab
No.The Scottish Government says that no party has any intention of using the tax-varying power, but that is not true. The SNP itself has sought to use it in ...
Iain Gray
Lab
I am sorry—I will not give way.Mr Swinney said to the Equal Opportunities Committee in May this year:“We could use the tax-varying powers—for example, we cou...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Order.