Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 27 February 2014
27 Feb 2014 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I thank Mr Allard for confirming that what I said about his earlier intervention was entirely correct. If abolishing the requirement for corroboration does not increase the rate of conviction, I cannot see what it does for victims of crime. They want to see those who they claim have assaulted them being convicted. Surely that is the point.
Lord Carloway and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice both described the rule of corroboration as “archaic”. It is certainly an ancient rule of law. So, of course, is the presumption of innocence. I dare say that there are prosecutors and people in the police who would be quite happy to scrap what they would describe as the archaic law of the presumption of innocence and I dare say that that would increase convictions. There is no doubt about that.
However, our role in Parliament is not to do everything that the police and prosecutors ask for. As Alison McInnes said in an excellent speech, our role is to strike a balance—sometimes, it is a difficult balance—to ensure that the innocent are protected. Scrapping the requirement for corroboration tips the balance too far, in my opinion.
I will say something about the Justice Committee. Those of us who are involved in committees in the Parliament know how unusual it is, since 2011, for SNP-dominated committees to say anything critical of a measure that the SNP Government proposes. We have all sat there and seen lines that are in any way critical of anything that the Government is doing being excised by SNP members.
What makes the Justice Committee’s report remarkable is that it is the first instance that I can think of in the past three years in which an SNP-dominated committee has disagreed with a proposal from the Scottish Government. The cabinet secretary should take note of that. In particular, he should take note of the views of the committee convener, Christine Grahame. She is a well-regarded convener and a lawyer like me. When she decides that what the Government is doing is not correct, the cabinet secretary, the Government and Parliament should listen to that.
Even the cabinet secretary himself has concerns. We know that because he has conceded a review under Lord Bonomy. It is an extraordinary approach to say that we should pass the measure into law and thereafter have the review. That is the wrong way round. We should not be asked to pass a law until we have full scrutiny of the proposal and have the review first.
Let us make an offer to the cabinet secretary. We will not be unreasonable on the issue. We are happy to consider the case for scrapping the general corroboration rule as part of a wider review of the laws of evidence. That is precisely what Lord Gill proposed to the Justice Committee. The cabinet secretary can take that away, take the measure out of the bill and bring back fresh primary legislation following the review. It will get proper parliamentary scrutiny and he will get support from us if he does that job properly.
The cabinet secretary has a simple choice. He is a fair-minded man and I have a lot of respect for him as Cabinet Secretary for Justice. He can either do the right thing, listen to the Justice Committee, its esteemed convener, all the Opposition parties in the Parliament and all the various outside bodies that have raised concerns about abolition and take the provision out of the bill, rethink it, review it and bring it back to Parliament for proper consideration; or he can railroad it through on a tightly whipped vote with, inevitably, a narrow majority at best and show contempt for the view of the Justice Committee. This is his chance to show his mettle. I hope that he will not disappoint me or the people of Scotland.
16:38
Lord Carloway and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice both described the rule of corroboration as “archaic”. It is certainly an ancient rule of law. So, of course, is the presumption of innocence. I dare say that there are prosecutors and people in the police who would be quite happy to scrap what they would describe as the archaic law of the presumption of innocence and I dare say that that would increase convictions. There is no doubt about that.
However, our role in Parliament is not to do everything that the police and prosecutors ask for. As Alison McInnes said in an excellent speech, our role is to strike a balance—sometimes, it is a difficult balance—to ensure that the innocent are protected. Scrapping the requirement for corroboration tips the balance too far, in my opinion.
I will say something about the Justice Committee. Those of us who are involved in committees in the Parliament know how unusual it is, since 2011, for SNP-dominated committees to say anything critical of a measure that the SNP Government proposes. We have all sat there and seen lines that are in any way critical of anything that the Government is doing being excised by SNP members.
What makes the Justice Committee’s report remarkable is that it is the first instance that I can think of in the past three years in which an SNP-dominated committee has disagreed with a proposal from the Scottish Government. The cabinet secretary should take note of that. In particular, he should take note of the views of the committee convener, Christine Grahame. She is a well-regarded convener and a lawyer like me. When she decides that what the Government is doing is not correct, the cabinet secretary, the Government and Parliament should listen to that.
Even the cabinet secretary himself has concerns. We know that because he has conceded a review under Lord Bonomy. It is an extraordinary approach to say that we should pass the measure into law and thereafter have the review. That is the wrong way round. We should not be asked to pass a law until we have full scrutiny of the proposal and have the review first.
Let us make an offer to the cabinet secretary. We will not be unreasonable on the issue. We are happy to consider the case for scrapping the general corroboration rule as part of a wider review of the laws of evidence. That is precisely what Lord Gill proposed to the Justice Committee. The cabinet secretary can take that away, take the measure out of the bill and bring back fresh primary legislation following the review. It will get proper parliamentary scrutiny and he will get support from us if he does that job properly.
The cabinet secretary has a simple choice. He is a fair-minded man and I have a lot of respect for him as Cabinet Secretary for Justice. He can either do the right thing, listen to the Justice Committee, its esteemed convener, all the Opposition parties in the Parliament and all the various outside bodies that have raised concerns about abolition and take the provision out of the bill, rethink it, review it and bring it back to Parliament for proper consideration; or he can railroad it through on a tightly whipped vote with, inevitably, a narrow majority at best and show contempt for the view of the Justice Committee. This is his chance to show his mettle. I hope that he will not disappoint me or the people of Scotland.
16:38
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The first item of business this afternoon is a debate on motion S4M-09160, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, on the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill.
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice (Kenny MacAskill)
SNP
I am delighted to open this stage 1 debate on the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill. The bill contains a significant package of wide-ranging reforms to our cr...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
What does the Government have to fear from including consideration of whether or not to abolish corroboration in the remit of the Lord Bonomy review?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
I say to Ms Mitchell that I am quite clear that, as I will go on to say, the case for abolition has been made. It has been made and supported by prosecutors ...
Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)
LD
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Not at the moment.The work of the distinguished experts in the review will allow us to modernise our system and ensure that it is in balance. I have complete...
Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green)
Green
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Not at the moment.All of us here share the same goal: a balanced and effective criminal justice system, and one that is safe and secure. Lord Bonomy’s review...
Alison McInnes
LD
The cabinet secretary, the Lord Advocate and, indeed, Scottish Women’s Aid have all openly admitted that the removal of corroboration will not in itself resu...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
One of our most distinguished judges said that we cannot have a whole category of victims who are routinely denied access to justice. We cannot have those wh...
Margaret Mitchell
Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Not at the moment.The voices of brave individuals have been echoed by those of the professionals who see the very personal and devastating impact that the co...
Patrick Harvie
Green
Will the minister give way?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Not at the moment.The difficulties posed by the corroboration rule to the pursuit of individual real cases could not be more apparent. We have heard from Pol...
Patrick Harvie
Green
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Margaret Mitchell
Con
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
After so much debate, we must now act. The bill sends a clear message that Parliament has listened and is acting to address that injustice. The corroboration...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
LD
Will the minister give way?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Not at the moment.
Willie Rennie
LD
Outrageous!
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Order, Mr Rennie.
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
The extent of that injustice is clear. Research for the Carloway review identified that, in 2010, 268 serious cases were dropped after the initial court appe...
Willie Rennie
LD
Will the minister give way?
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
I now ask Parliament to listen to the voices of those representing some of the most vulnerable people in our society and to support the general principles of...
Willie Rennie
LD
Will the minister give way now?
The Presiding Officer
NPA
The minister is in his final minute.
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
We need to set that important principle now and move discussion on to how to ensure a modern, efficient and fair justice system that is fit for 21st century ...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con)
Con
I thank the numerous witnesses who gave evidence and the Justice Committee clerks for their work in helping committee members to compile the stage 1 report o...
Kenny MacAskill
SNP
Margaret Mitchell missed out the police and prosecutors. Do they not have a say?
Margaret Mitchell
Con
I listed the people who have expressed their opposition. As the cabinet secretary knows, for one reason or another the police gave very confused views and ch...