Chamber
Plenary, 30 Jun 2005
30 Jun 2005 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Bill
I never thought that I would see this day and I never expected that I would be a politician and in Parliament on such a day. Honestly and truly, I thought that it would never happen.
When I qualified in 1965, one of my first jobs was in a thoracic unit. If I was ever in any doubt about what cigarette smoking could do to a person, I learned then. Later, I worked as an anaesthetist for eight years. Let me assure members that somebody who has been a smoker can have difficulties and can make it hard for the anaesthetist. We always dreaded having to put to sleep somebody who said that they smoked 20 cigarettes a day but probably really smoked 40 or 80 a day.
I thank Stewart Maxwell for starting the ball rolling. It was a wonderful start and the Executive has to be congratulated on taking it up. This has been a wonderful attempt to look for the first time at long-term benefits. Governments do not usually do that sort of thing; I would never have thought that the Government would get involved. However, I am proud to be part of the Parliament that has brought in this bill.
Members will have guessed that I am in favour of the bill. There have been a few glitches along the way and I am a little bit sad about the dates for the Skipton Fund. However, we must think about the reductions in heart and lung disease, strokes, diabetes and kidney disease that will follow from the bill. Kidney disease is on the rise. Much of that is to do with vascular problems and many vascular problems come from cigarette smoking.
We all know that a person who goes back to smoking after a bypass operation is more likely to have to have the operation redone. Of the people I know or have worked with who smoke, most would love to stop. The bill is one way of encouraging them, but we will have to do a lot to help people to stop smoking, which is a serious addiction. Trying to stop smoking is as bad as trying to stop taking heroin. I know that, because my parents were heavy smokers. I have known many other people who would be addicted again tomorrow if they had one cigarette. Addiction to tobacco is serious and people need a great deal of help when trying to stop smoking.
We were worried about what would happen in homes as a result of the bill. I was encouraged by the evidence from Australia that I read, which did not find any resulting increase in the incidence of smoking in homes or of childhood illnesses.
Like all other members, I worry about the workforce for the dental side of things, but I appreciate what the Executive is trying to do. I remind members that doctors examine patients' digestive tracts. The digestive tract starts in the mouth, so oral examinations can be done by general practitioners. When examining people, GPs may also notice that there are a few things to fix in people's teeth, which they cannot do—for that, people will have to go to their dentist, if they have one. However, oral checks are part of a medical examination. General practitioners can look in people's mouths to see whether any cancer is lurking there.
I will limit my comments to a few issues that worry me. Pharmaceutical services are changing greatly. We have been lobbied a great deal by people who enjoy stoma services from companies that supply the appliances. Many years ago, those companies started supplying nurses and contributing to the cost of their services. I have never known a nurse push a particular product. As I said at the Health Committee, stomas are as individual as the people who have them, so they need special attention. I appreciate the fact that the Minister for Health and Community Care and his deputy have tried to allay fears on the issue. I would like to ensure that they make clear, as they have, that no one will have any problems because of the change. Every time that there is a change to a service, someone is liable to fall through the net. Many of the people to whom I refer have enjoyed stoma services for many years. They are terrified that they will become housebound because there will be a glitch in the service and they will not be able to get what used to be delivered to their house. I hope that I will hear at the end of the debate that that issue will be addressed.
Another important provision that I have read in regulations concerns the indemnity for all practitioners other than doctors, nurses and dentists, which is important for patients, in particular. In Scotland and England, indemnity is usually provided by the Medical Defence Union. Usually, insurance policies start on the date on which the policy was issued and end on the stated date. If practitioners fail in any way to keep up the policy and do patients harm, patients may suffer.
This is a huge bill, any part of which could have been a bill in itself. If we had not already worked on the Prohibition of Smoking in Regulated Areas (Scotland) Bill, which was introduced by Stewart Maxwell, we would have had difficulty dealing with it. As all members know, I have great doubts about the provisions relating to joint ventures. I have found that private companies limited by guarantee that are not wholly made up of public bodies do not seem to be subject to the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. I am not against private companies being involved, but I would not like them to take over the NHS or the medical needs of people working in the NHS and, subsequently, patients. I would like to be reassured on that issue.
I am delighted with most of the bill. I am ecstatic about the provisions that relate to smoking. It is wonderful for me to be here today to see history created. I appreciate all the work that was put in by the clerks and others, who are great when members try to lodge amendments but do not know what they are doing. I congratulate all those, from top to bottom, who have been involved with the bill, as they have been very hard-working. I wish the bill well and am sure that the health of our nation will improve as a result. In 15 to 20 years, we will be very pleased that we passed it.
When I qualified in 1965, one of my first jobs was in a thoracic unit. If I was ever in any doubt about what cigarette smoking could do to a person, I learned then. Later, I worked as an anaesthetist for eight years. Let me assure members that somebody who has been a smoker can have difficulties and can make it hard for the anaesthetist. We always dreaded having to put to sleep somebody who said that they smoked 20 cigarettes a day but probably really smoked 40 or 80 a day.
I thank Stewart Maxwell for starting the ball rolling. It was a wonderful start and the Executive has to be congratulated on taking it up. This has been a wonderful attempt to look for the first time at long-term benefits. Governments do not usually do that sort of thing; I would never have thought that the Government would get involved. However, I am proud to be part of the Parliament that has brought in this bill.
Members will have guessed that I am in favour of the bill. There have been a few glitches along the way and I am a little bit sad about the dates for the Skipton Fund. However, we must think about the reductions in heart and lung disease, strokes, diabetes and kidney disease that will follow from the bill. Kidney disease is on the rise. Much of that is to do with vascular problems and many vascular problems come from cigarette smoking.
We all know that a person who goes back to smoking after a bypass operation is more likely to have to have the operation redone. Of the people I know or have worked with who smoke, most would love to stop. The bill is one way of encouraging them, but we will have to do a lot to help people to stop smoking, which is a serious addiction. Trying to stop smoking is as bad as trying to stop taking heroin. I know that, because my parents were heavy smokers. I have known many other people who would be addicted again tomorrow if they had one cigarette. Addiction to tobacco is serious and people need a great deal of help when trying to stop smoking.
We were worried about what would happen in homes as a result of the bill. I was encouraged by the evidence from Australia that I read, which did not find any resulting increase in the incidence of smoking in homes or of childhood illnesses.
Like all other members, I worry about the workforce for the dental side of things, but I appreciate what the Executive is trying to do. I remind members that doctors examine patients' digestive tracts. The digestive tract starts in the mouth, so oral examinations can be done by general practitioners. When examining people, GPs may also notice that there are a few things to fix in people's teeth, which they cannot do—for that, people will have to go to their dentist, if they have one. However, oral checks are part of a medical examination. General practitioners can look in people's mouths to see whether any cancer is lurking there.
I will limit my comments to a few issues that worry me. Pharmaceutical services are changing greatly. We have been lobbied a great deal by people who enjoy stoma services from companies that supply the appliances. Many years ago, those companies started supplying nurses and contributing to the cost of their services. I have never known a nurse push a particular product. As I said at the Health Committee, stomas are as individual as the people who have them, so they need special attention. I appreciate the fact that the Minister for Health and Community Care and his deputy have tried to allay fears on the issue. I would like to ensure that they make clear, as they have, that no one will have any problems because of the change. Every time that there is a change to a service, someone is liable to fall through the net. Many of the people to whom I refer have enjoyed stoma services for many years. They are terrified that they will become housebound because there will be a glitch in the service and they will not be able to get what used to be delivered to their house. I hope that I will hear at the end of the debate that that issue will be addressed.
Another important provision that I have read in regulations concerns the indemnity for all practitioners other than doctors, nurses and dentists, which is important for patients, in particular. In Scotland and England, indemnity is usually provided by the Medical Defence Union. Usually, insurance policies start on the date on which the policy was issued and end on the stated date. If practitioners fail in any way to keep up the policy and do patients harm, patients may suffer.
This is a huge bill, any part of which could have been a bill in itself. If we had not already worked on the Prohibition of Smoking in Regulated Areas (Scotland) Bill, which was introduced by Stewart Maxwell, we would have had difficulty dealing with it. As all members know, I have great doubts about the provisions relating to joint ventures. I have found that private companies limited by guarantee that are not wholly made up of public bodies do not seem to be subject to the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. I am not against private companies being involved, but I would not like them to take over the NHS or the medical needs of people working in the NHS and, subsequently, patients. I would like to be reassured on that issue.
I am delighted with most of the bill. I am ecstatic about the provisions that relate to smoking. It is wonderful for me to be here today to see history created. I appreciate all the work that was put in by the clerks and others, who are great when members try to lodge amendments but do not know what they are doing. I congratulate all those, from top to bottom, who have been involved with the bill, as they have been very hard-working. I wish the bill well and am sure that the health of our nation will improve as a result. In 15 to 20 years, we will be very pleased that we passed it.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-2985, in the name of Andy Kerr, that the Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Bill be passed. Minis...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Mr Andy Kerr):
Lab
I am not sure whether the rest of the members would encourage me to do that.The Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Bill will transform Scotland. It w...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):
SNP
It is difficult to address every aspect of the Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Bill, because the bill is so wide ranging. As I have said before, t...
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
The member tries to portray the Conservatives as a rump and an isolated minority. Does she accept that, in her party group, in the Labour group and even amon...
Shona Robison:
SNP
Frankly, the Tories do not represent a majority view on anything. I will deal with other important issues in the bill. We have long supported the introductio...
Mrs Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
The Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Bill is a fairly simple-sounding title for a complex and diverse bill that will affect many people's lives. We...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Is the member unaware of the evidence that was given to the Health Committee that shows that what she has just said is patently untrue? Does she accept that ...
Mrs Milne:
Con
There is conflicting evidence on the efficacy of ventilation. Only this week, I read that ventilation can reduce the amount of carcinogens not necessarily to...
Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):
LD
By contrast, I rise to support the bill with enthusiasm and to acknowledge it as a major achievement for the Scottish Parliament. I commend the committee, th...
Members:
Ah!
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
I said that I was enthusiastic.Attention has inevitably and quite rightly focused on the smoking aspects of the bill. The banning of smoking in enclosed publ...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
I join other colleagues in thanking the clerks to the committee, other staff who are associated with the committee and the many witnesses who gave evidence f...
Mr Monteith:
Con
Will the member give way?
Janis Hughes:
Lab
I am sorry, but we heard Brian Monteith's arguments in the committee and we have heard exactly the same arguments today. They have been voted down on both oc...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
This is not the end and it is not the beginning of the end, but it might just be the end of the beginning in eliminating the evil trade of the tobacco barons...
Eleanor Scott (Highlands and Islands) (Green):
Green
How can I follow Stewart Stevenson?I warmly welcome the bill on behalf of the Scottish Green Party. I will mention my reservations about the bill first and g...
Irene Oldfather (Cunninghame South) (Lab):
Lab
Today in the Scottish Parliament I believe that we are witnessing a moment in history. Those who vote for the bill today vote to improve the health and lives...
Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
To begin with, I will focus on part 2 of the bill, which contains enabling legislation that is designed to ensure that the Executive's commitment to radicall...
Dr Jean Turner (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind):
Ind
I never thought that I would see this day and I never expected that I would be a politician and in Parliament on such a day. Honestly and truly, I thought th...
Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
It is rare for people to admit that they are wrong; it is rarer still for politicians to do so. Given that this is the last day before the recess and judging...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
I start by making a couple of remarks about the provisions in the bill—other than the central purpose of addressing smoking—that are worthy of comment. Free ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
Mr Swinney, I remind you that mobile phones must be switched off, not just left on silent.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I commend the Executive for taking the issue further and creating a bill with which to address the problem. I am not yet familiar with the mechanics of Gover...
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
To draw on the earlier reference to the Crimea, I rather sense that I am leading the light cavalry into the Russian guns at Balaclava.Before I proceed, I tha...
John Swinburne (Central Scotland) (SSCUP):
SSCUP
Will the member give way?
Mr Monteith:
Con
No. I must carry on.The logical extension of that is to ban smoking altogether. I know that one or two members would like to do that, but the Parliament will...
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
Will Brian Monteith take an intervention? He is wrong.
Mr Monteith:
Con
No. I will not take an intervention from somebody as rude as Stewart Stevenson.If we suspend the laws of physics and do not accept the advice of learned scie...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I start on a rather disappointing note in relation to the reinsertion of the cut-off date for claims to the Skipton Fund. It is rather unfortunate that that ...
Nora Radcliffe:
LD
Will the member give way?