Chamber
Plenary, 15 Jan 2004
15 Jan 2004 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Emergency Workers (Protection)
In August last year, I found myself in Helensburgh court because I had been deemed to be part of a crowd that was acting inappropriately outside the gates of Faslane nuclear submarine base and I had been arrested and charged with breach of the peace. That makes it clear to me that anyone, in any part of Scotland, who is part of a large crowd that is acting inappropriately can already be charged and arrested for their behaviour.
In the court, I had to wait for two cases to be dealt with before mine. One chap was charged with possession of what was described as enough cannabis for personal use. Another chap was charged with assaulting a female ticket collector on the Glasgow to Dumbarton train; the assault constituted verbal abuse and spitting on the female ticket collector. Both the young men pleaded guilty to their respective charges and both were fined £50.
That example illustrates why we need to reinforce the promise that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service made more than a year ago, when it said that it would emphasise the need to deal much more stringently with attacks on public service workers. In Helensburgh that day, it was obvious that the message from the Lord Advocate had not got through. When a young man is fined £50 for possession of cannabis for personal use and someone who has assaulted a young female ticket collector is given the same fine, it is obvious that the message is not getting through. We must address the fact that far too many public service and emergency service workers in Scotland are vulnerable and need extra protection.
I am sure that other members, like me, have a sense of déjà vu. We should not be discussing the introduction of a specific offence against emergency service workers—we should be discussing whether we need to extend legislation to cover other workers. In February 2003, the Parliament should have agreed to amendment 75 to the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill, in the name of Paul Martin, which wanted to make attacking emergency service workers a specific new offence. The same arguments that were deployed against that amendment are being deployed today—that is where my sense of déjà vu comes from. Some members are asking, rightly, how far the argument goes, who is in the public service and who is an emergency service worker. Such arguments are legitimate and we should not undermine them, but we should have made a start a year ago by introducing the provisions that were discussed at stage 2 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill, which received cross-party support. The provisions were also discussed at stage 3 in February 2003 and secured cross-party support. Unfortunately, Liberal and Labour members voted against the provisions. It would be worth while for Labour members to bear it in mind that when some members called for the introduction of extra laws, Labour members voted them down and voted against extra support for emergency workers in the front line.
We must all welcome the fact that we have eventually reached this stage and that there will eventually be legislation, but it would have been much better if legislation had been in force for the past 12 months. We could have reflected on how things had worked and on how wide we would have to cast the net in relation to extension. We must certainly ensure that ambulance crews are included in any definition of emergency workers and that the front-line staff whom members have mentioned—particularly nurses and other health workers on duty in accident and emergency wards throughout Scotland—are considered to work in emergency situations. However, it would have been better for all those emergency service workers if the Parliament had taken the bold step of introducing the provisions back in February last year. We would then have been able to monitor things and to add any extra coverage that was now required.
I hope that the Lord Advocate will admit that he was wrong when he said:
"I do not believe that there is a proven need for legislation at this stage."—[Official Report, 20 February 2003; c 18516.]
I am afraid that, almost 12 months later, there is a need for legislation. Legislation was needed then—most of the examples that were given by Paul Martin and other members involved attacks on emergency service workers that had happened in 2000, 2001 and 2002. Sadly, such attacks are still taking place.
We should welcome the fact that there will be legislation, but we should recognise that the legislation is a year late. The Executive must learn to listen more to its own back benchers as well as to Opposition members.
In the court, I had to wait for two cases to be dealt with before mine. One chap was charged with possession of what was described as enough cannabis for personal use. Another chap was charged with assaulting a female ticket collector on the Glasgow to Dumbarton train; the assault constituted verbal abuse and spitting on the female ticket collector. Both the young men pleaded guilty to their respective charges and both were fined £50.
That example illustrates why we need to reinforce the promise that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service made more than a year ago, when it said that it would emphasise the need to deal much more stringently with attacks on public service workers. In Helensburgh that day, it was obvious that the message from the Lord Advocate had not got through. When a young man is fined £50 for possession of cannabis for personal use and someone who has assaulted a young female ticket collector is given the same fine, it is obvious that the message is not getting through. We must address the fact that far too many public service and emergency service workers in Scotland are vulnerable and need extra protection.
I am sure that other members, like me, have a sense of déjà vu. We should not be discussing the introduction of a specific offence against emergency service workers—we should be discussing whether we need to extend legislation to cover other workers. In February 2003, the Parliament should have agreed to amendment 75 to the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill, in the name of Paul Martin, which wanted to make attacking emergency service workers a specific new offence. The same arguments that were deployed against that amendment are being deployed today—that is where my sense of déjà vu comes from. Some members are asking, rightly, how far the argument goes, who is in the public service and who is an emergency service worker. Such arguments are legitimate and we should not undermine them, but we should have made a start a year ago by introducing the provisions that were discussed at stage 2 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill, which received cross-party support. The provisions were also discussed at stage 3 in February 2003 and secured cross-party support. Unfortunately, Liberal and Labour members voted against the provisions. It would be worth while for Labour members to bear it in mind that when some members called for the introduction of extra laws, Labour members voted them down and voted against extra support for emergency workers in the front line.
We must all welcome the fact that we have eventually reached this stage and that there will eventually be legislation, but it would have been much better if legislation had been in force for the past 12 months. We could have reflected on how things had worked and on how wide we would have to cast the net in relation to extension. We must certainly ensure that ambulance crews are included in any definition of emergency workers and that the front-line staff whom members have mentioned—particularly nurses and other health workers on duty in accident and emergency wards throughout Scotland—are considered to work in emergency situations. However, it would have been better for all those emergency service workers if the Parliament had taken the bold step of introducing the provisions back in February last year. We would then have been able to monitor things and to add any extra coverage that was now required.
I hope that the Lord Advocate will admit that he was wrong when he said:
"I do not believe that there is a proven need for legislation at this stage."—[Official Report, 20 February 2003; c 18516.]
I am afraid that, almost 12 months later, there is a need for legislation. Legislation was needed then—most of the examples that were given by Paul Martin and other members involved attacks on emergency service workers that had happened in 2000, 2001 and 2002. Sadly, such attacks are still taking place.
We should welcome the fact that there will be legislation, but we should recognise that the legislation is a year late. The Executive must learn to listen more to its own back benchers as well as to Opposition members.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on protection of emergency workers. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.
The Minister for Finance and Public Services (Mr Andy Kerr):
Lab
I am pleased to open this debate on protection of emergency workers, which is an important part of our commitment to reducing crime and protecting communitie...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):
SNP
On the basis of that definition, would the minister be minded to include those who work in accident and emergency departments in our hospitals, where life an...
Mr Kerr:
Lab
As colleagues are reminding me, I said that. It is our ambition that the legislation would cover those who work in the accident and emergency departments of ...
Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):
Lab
Has any thought been given to targets for police response times, given the fact that part of the problem in Coatbridge was the police response time? I have n...
Mr Kerr:
Lab
Whether the bill covers that issue or not, we intend not just to address issues of legislation and the courts, but to introduce a wider package of measures t...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
There will obviously be a lot of agreement with what the minister has said. Does he agree that all of us, as elected members, have a responsibility to play o...
Mr Kerr:
Lab
I would hope that that would be the case, although I am interested to know why Fergus Ewing asked that question. Perhaps that will come out in further debate...
Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab):
Lab
I recognise that the consultation document sets out the measures that have been taken by the Lord Advocate and procurators fiscal. I also note that it refers...
Mr Kerr:
Lab
Having discussed such measures with trade union colleagues, employers and professional bodies in the past few months, I have found out about a number of good...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
I am sure that all of us, and indeed all right-thinking people, will agree with all the sentiments that the Minister for Finance and Public Services has expr...
Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con):
Con
Today's debate on the protection of emergency service workers is important. At the outset, it is only right and proper for us to pay tribute to the men and w...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
Let me start by saying something that I think is relevant to this debate: laws are not the only answer. A package of measures is required. That package shoul...
Bristow Muldoon:
Lab
I am a little puzzled by Robert Brown's analogy that we can perhaps understand why someone might throw stones at a train, given that the consequences of such...
Robert Brown:
LD
In no sense was I excusing such actions. I was trying to say that it is important that we try to put ourselves into the mind of the people who do such things...
Mr David Davidson (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Presiding Officer, thank you for taking me early so that I can catch a train. I apologise to members for leaving the chamber immediately after my speech.The ...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
I fully support what the member says about those health service workers who work in specific buildings. What solutions would he provide for those who have to...
Mr Davidson:
Con
The answer has already been given. They should have panic devices, their vehicles should be locked and they should have the necessary systems to support them...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I have some reservations about the Executive's proposals, but I welcome any debate that seeks to give ...
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
It is clear from the debate so far that there is broad consensus among members of all parties on the unacceptability—as David Davidson put it—of antisocial b...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
Does Alex Neil agree with me and Johann Lamont that the proposed legislation is needed as part of a wider package? Will he join me in welcoming the Antisocia...
Alex Neil:
SNP
We all agree on the need to tackle antisocial behaviour. The argument is about whether all the provisions in the bill are the best options. We will continue ...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
In August last year, I found myself in Helensburgh court because I had been deemed to be part of a crowd that was acting inappropriately outside the gates of...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
I was not a member of the Parliament last February, so I welcome the opportunity to discuss this important issue today. I am glad to see that at least one me...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
Many interesting and thoughtful speeches have been made, which build usefully on the work that Paul Martin did during the passage of the Criminal Justice (Sc...
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
Will the member clarify whether, in his sympathy towards public sector workers, he believes that they should have specific statutory protection?
Stewart Stevenson:
SNP
I will develop that point later. If I do not, I invite Brian Monteith to stand up again.Police drivers are trained in defensive driving. By the same token, a...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest, as I am a member of Unison.I believe, as do many public sector workers, that the Scottish Executive's proposal is too restrictive in s...
Mr Stewart Maxwell (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member take an intervention?
Margaret Jamieson:
Lab
I am just finishing. I ask the minister to take account of my concerns in his consultation.