Chamber
Plenary, 16 Feb 2000
16 Feb 2000 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Draft Census (Scotland) Order 2000
I welcome the Executive's decision to give way to Parliament on the questions on religion and ethnicity. It is a pity that it is not willing to give way on the question on Scots language. The Executive must learn, when it does give way, to give way with enough notice to avoid problems for committees such as the Equal Opportunities Committee, which conduct serious deliberations on these matters.
It is important that the Parliament has, in effect,
flexed its muscles on those two key questions. It is also important that the Parliament learns how to flex its muscles to impose changes on the Executive. I hope that the Parliament will flex its muscles today, not just on the addition of a question on Scots language, but on the addition of a question on income.
Why a question on income? Mr Wallace said that the 2001 census, the first census of the new century, was a landmark occasion. It is clear from various reports that income inequality at the beginning of this new century is even wider than it was at the beginning of the previous century. We must have detailed analysis and statistics to allow us to examine income inequality.
Pressure has been brought to bear on the question of income by organisations too numerous to mention and people from all backgrounds, as the minister has recognised. Social researchers— including the Parliament's own researcher—are asking for that question to be included, arguing that it is essential for gathering reasonable data on income. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and other groups have also argued strongly for the inclusion of such a question.
There must be a question on income in the census so that we have a clear idea of income distribution in the Scottish population. There is no comprehensive survey of that at present, but such a comprehensive survey would be extremely valuable in relation to social and economic policy. It would allow us to get a clear picture of income distribution on a geographical basis.
There are, of course, indicators of inequalities in income and wealth in some areas. Indeed, a recent report in the newspaper that is given out free in Scotland's railway stations said that 125 millionaires live in Albert Drive, Pollokshields—the street in which Gordon Jackson, the member for Glasgow Govan, lives. That report is supposed to be reliable, but Gordon may disagree with it. Unfortunately, there are no millionaires in Pollok, but there you go.
We need comprehensive information on income distribution on a geographical basis. I would have thought that the Executive, which is trying to promote an anti-poverty policy that can be applied on an area-by-area basis, responding to deprivation in each area, would have been interested in having geographical data. If we are serious about policy change to solve Scotland's social problems, that information must be invaluable.
The Scottish Socialist party hopes soon to introduce a new proposal to abolish the deeply regressive and unpopular council tax and replace it with a Scottish service tax that would be based on ability to pay and incomes. However, there are no reliable sources of income data that would allow the serious analysis that is required. Some sources use car ownership as an indicator of income, as if someone who has a car necessarily has a better income than someone who does not. However, ownership of a car is a necessity for a person in a rural area, rather than the luxury that it might be for someone from another area. Car ownership is a crude and unreliable source of income data.
The Executive says that it will not accept the inclusion of the question on income as it is worried that the question will deter people from filling in the census forms. However, the evidence from the census test of 1997 showed that the inclusion of a question on income—
It is important that the Parliament has, in effect,
flexed its muscles on those two key questions. It is also important that the Parliament learns how to flex its muscles to impose changes on the Executive. I hope that the Parliament will flex its muscles today, not just on the addition of a question on Scots language, but on the addition of a question on income.
Why a question on income? Mr Wallace said that the 2001 census, the first census of the new century, was a landmark occasion. It is clear from various reports that income inequality at the beginning of this new century is even wider than it was at the beginning of the previous century. We must have detailed analysis and statistics to allow us to examine income inequality.
Pressure has been brought to bear on the question of income by organisations too numerous to mention and people from all backgrounds, as the minister has recognised. Social researchers— including the Parliament's own researcher—are asking for that question to be included, arguing that it is essential for gathering reasonable data on income. The Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and other groups have also argued strongly for the inclusion of such a question.
There must be a question on income in the census so that we have a clear idea of income distribution in the Scottish population. There is no comprehensive survey of that at present, but such a comprehensive survey would be extremely valuable in relation to social and economic policy. It would allow us to get a clear picture of income distribution on a geographical basis.
There are, of course, indicators of inequalities in income and wealth in some areas. Indeed, a recent report in the newspaper that is given out free in Scotland's railway stations said that 125 millionaires live in Albert Drive, Pollokshields—the street in which Gordon Jackson, the member for Glasgow Govan, lives. That report is supposed to be reliable, but Gordon may disagree with it. Unfortunately, there are no millionaires in Pollok, but there you go.
We need comprehensive information on income distribution on a geographical basis. I would have thought that the Executive, which is trying to promote an anti-poverty policy that can be applied on an area-by-area basis, responding to deprivation in each area, would have been interested in having geographical data. If we are serious about policy change to solve Scotland's social problems, that information must be invaluable.
The Scottish Socialist party hopes soon to introduce a new proposal to abolish the deeply regressive and unpopular council tax and replace it with a Scottish service tax that would be based on ability to pay and incomes. However, there are no reliable sources of income data that would allow the serious analysis that is required. Some sources use car ownership as an indicator of income, as if someone who has a car necessarily has a better income than someone who does not. However, ownership of a car is a necessity for a person in a rural area, rather than the luxury that it might be for someone from another area. Car ownership is a crude and unreliable source of income data.
The Executive says that it will not accept the inclusion of the question on income as it is worried that the question will deter people from filling in the census forms. However, the evidence from the census test of 1997 showed that the inclusion of a question on income—
In the same item of business
The Minister for Parliament (Mr Tom McCabe):
Lab
I move without notice, That motion S1M-552 be taken at this meeting of the Parliament.
Motion agreed to.
Mr McCabe:
Lab
I wish to move motion S1M-552 because the draft census order is somewhat unusual, in that it is subject to both affirmative and negative procedures. Suspensi...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
We will now proceed to the debate on motion S1M-459.
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I understand that motion S1M-519 in the name of Kate MacLean has been withdrawn.
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
You have pre-empted me—I was about to inform members that Kate MacLean's motion has been withdrawn. In the interests of the chamber, I am happy to accept a m...
Tricia Marwick:
SNP
I move without notice,That motion S1M-554 be taken at this meeting of the Parliament.
Motion agreed to.
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I will call Irene McGugan to move her motion in place of that of Kate MacLean at the appropriate time. I now call Jim Wallace to move motion S1M-459.
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
The 2001 census will be a landmark event, as it will be the first census of the new millennium and the first to be conducted under the auspices of the Scotti...
Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP):
SNP
I am interested in the reference that has been made to escalating costs. For the benefit of everyone in the chamber, will the minister give us an indication ...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I have received estimates thatindicate that an extra page would cost an additional £600,000 to £1 million; the more pages were added, the more costs would in...
Mr Kenneth Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
I thank the minister for his concession, which will be broadly welcomed by all religious groups. In my constituency, the Christian, Muslim and Jewish communi...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I assure Mr Macintosh that there will be consultation. I am sure that the Jewish community will want to make its views known. The inclusion in the census of ...
Mr Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
Of course we welcome the concessions and believe that the minister is totally trustworthy. I wonder, however, when he decided to make the concessions and why...
Mr Wallace:
LD
That is rather obvious. The motion before Parliament today was lodged on 10 January, before the Equal Opportunities Committee had had an opportunity to consi...
Mr Salmond:
SNP
The minister, as he well knows, is perfectly capable of lodging an amendment, which would adjust the Executive's position. Usually undertakings given to Parl...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I am not sure whether Mr Salmond was listening. I made it clear that we cannot include anything in the order that relates to religion, because we do not have...
Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Given those statements, will the minister explain why he lent his support to the campaign to include a question on the Scots language in the census?
Mr Wallace:
LD
I am better informed now. I have the information from the research that has been conducted, which shows how unreliable an answer to a question on the Scots l...
Dorothy-Grace Elder (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister give way?
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The minister is winding up now.
Mr Wallace:
LD
In education, curriculum guidance advocates teaching a proper awareness and an appreciation of Scots by including Scots literature. It is clear that there is...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
As the minister explained, the procedure is complicated. I will call Irene McGugan to move her motion. As it is not identical to the one that has been withdr...
Irene McGugan (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
On behalf of the Scottish National party, I move motion S1M-554, lodged in my name, which seeks to include a question on the Scots language in the 2001 censu...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
Please proceed.
Irene McGugan:
SNP
The motion of the Equal Opportunities Committee, which has been withdrawn, put together a package of measures to ensure the inclusion in the census of a ques...
Ian Jenkins (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
I do not think that we can jump from one position to the other—because there is not a question in the census, that does not mean that the Parliament or the e...
Irene McGugan:
SNP
We need a question in the census for exactly those reasons—to be able to have a base line of information from which to move forward to further investment, re...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
I call Tommy Sheridan to speak to and move amendment S1M-459.1. You have five minutes, Mr Sheridan.