Committee
Social Justice Committee, 02 Oct 2002
02 Oct 2002 · S1 · Social Justice Committee
Item of business
Debt Arrangement and Attachment (Scotland) Bill: <br />Stage 2
I apologise for the complication that the convener has just described, but it results from a desire to offer alternatives to the committee.The amendments are intended to create an independent, impartial and robust decision-making mechanism to decide debt arrangement applications. Currently, section 2(2) and section 8 mean that the Scottish ministers will appoint an organisation or body to decide debt arrangement applications. However, that leaves far too many gaps in the bill and does not allow the robustness that all the independent advice agencies would like to be introduced. If we do not have a debt arrangement tribunal or a debt arrangement adjudicator, ministerial appointees will decide whether an application for a debt arrangement scheme is acceptable. I ask the committee to ensure the establishment of a body that has all the elements that are required to provide a compulsory character to the debt arrangement scheme proposal. That would ensure that creditors are not able to torpedo sincere and robust applications that would allow debtors to deal with their multiple debt problems on the ground that they disagree with the debt arrangement scheme. My amendments would establish a tribunal that would properly consider every application. The appeal mechanism that I propose would ensure that the scheme is fair to creditor and debtor. Such an appeal mechanism goes to the heart of the bill, because the worry is that, without such an appeal facility, far too many debtors will be unable to access the debt arrangement scheme. I think that all committee members are of the opinion that accessing the debt arrangement scheme will allow people with multiple debt problems to secure a reasonable solution to those problems. Therefore, I would prefer to establish a debt arrangement tribunal rather than a debt arrangement adjudicator, because a tribunal would be more robust and more easily understood and would have mechanisms for appeals. A tribunal would also operate along the lines of employment tribunals, which are widely used and respected. However, if it were felt that a tribunal would be a step too far, appointing an adjudicator would be an alternative. Whatever the committee decides, it is important that there is a transparent body that can examine applications reasonably and can provide an appeal process for decisions on whether applications are accepted.I move amendment 67.
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
Item 3 is consideration of the Debt Arrangement and Attachment (Scotland) Bill. I ask Robert Brown first to declare an interest.
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
I declare my membership of the Law Society of Scotland and my consultancy with Ross Harper and Murphy solicitors in Glasgow.
The Convener:
Lab
I welcome Dr Richard Simpson, the Deputy Minister for Justice. Members will wish to note that a number of manuscript amendments were lodged after the 2 o'clo...
Section 1—Debt arrangement scheme
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 66, in the name of Tommy Sheridan, is grouped with amendments 106, 48 and 49.
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
I will need a copy of the groupings, as I only have a copy of the marshalled list.I thank the convener for agreeing to accept the amendments and I note the p...
The Convener:
Lab
I call Kenny Gibson to speak to amendment 106 and the other amendments in the group. If Tommy Sheridan has any points to make on the other amendments in the ...
Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
The purpose of amendment 106 is to ensure that charges that are levied for the application, variation and recording of the debt repayment programme are appli...
The Convener:
Lab
Do you wish to speak to the other amendments in the group?
Mr Gibson:
SNP
The other amendments are broadly similar, and I am sympathetic to them.
Robert Brown:
LD
It is fair to say that the motivation behind the amendments is similar, but it would be inappropriate and unhelpful if challenges were made to the procedure ...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Dr Richard Simpson):
Lab
Several of the amendments seek to add to or delete from the list of matters on which the regulations may make further provision. Some of the proposed additio...
Tommy Sheridan:
SSP
I remind the committee that we are at stage 2 of a very important bill. One would have hoped that, at this stage, we would be discussing the detail of the le...
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 66 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.
ForGibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)AgainstBrown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)M...
The Convener:
Lab
The result of the division is: For 1, Against 5, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 66 disagreed to.
Section 1 agreed to.
Section 2—Debt payment programmes
The Convener:
Lab
Amendment 67 is grouped with amendments 68, 78, 79, 83, 84, 95 and 96. Amendments 67 and 68 are alternatives, so if amendment 67 is agreed to, amendment 68 w...
Tommy Sheridan:
SSP
I apologise for the complication that the convener has just described, but it results from a desire to offer alternatives to the committee.The amendments are...
Dr Simpson:
I listened to Mr Sheridan's introduction of amendment 67, but it is still not clear to me why he has seen fit to lodge a substantial number of amendments tha...
Tommy Sheridan:
SSP
I thought that I had made it clear why there are two separate sets of amendments and two separate choices relating to each of those sets of amendments. The b...
The Convener:
Lab
I will deal with anyone who is out of order. Mr Sheridan may continue.
Tommy Sheridan:
SSP
All the agencies whose consultation views I have read, including Money Advice Scotland and Citizens Advice Scotland, have stated clearly that they require a ...
The Convener:
Lab
The question is, that amendment 67 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members:
No.
The Convener:
Lab
There will be a division.