Chamber
Plenary, 20 Mar 2002
20 Mar 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Sub-Post Offices
I am grateful to you, Presiding Officer. What happened to the debate on land reform? I am intrigued that Alex Neil, the member who graciously moved the motion to extend this debate, left the chamber with such alacrity. I am genuinely delighted to be here. However, as I have been in this seat since 2.35 pm, members will understand that I did not entirely share the enthusiasm that Alex Neil exhibited before he departed.
I am grateful to Robert Brown for raising what is an important issue. The postal service is a reserved matter. Therefore, although I understand the importance of the points that members have raised about the proposed deregulation, that is not a matter on which I wish to comment. However, the Executive has a real locus in the question of service provision in rural areas even if it is not directly responsible for the running and administration of the post offices. Although my portfolio covers rural areas, I recognise the concerns that have been raised by members about service provision in peripheral and other urban areas, where the loss of that service would be just as detrimental.
The threat to the Post Office has been well articulated, the principal issue being the move to ACT. However, the Executive's concerns are not just about the threat to the Post Office. Euan Robson made the point that, if the footfall of people into post offices is reduced, not only the Post Office but other service providers in remote or urban areas may be threatened.
The matter that has been of most concern to me, as a minister, is the threat to service provision in general. The evidence shows that it is not just post offices, but other vital services that have been in decline in rural areas. That was why the Executive commissioned a report on the provision of services in rural areas. The report raised interesting facts and showed the need for a more diverse range of ideas about how to provide services in different parts of rural Scotland.
Under the current Government, there have been several developments concerning Post Office services. First, there was the Post Office's decision to proceed with the development of the Horizon technology and to roll out that technology to all post offices. There was also the question of developing the one-stop-shop approach, which I examined in detail when I visited Canada last year. However, those developments would mean that post offices and other services could not be retained as we know them. Service provision would have to be reconfigured to be made viable. The Executive has taken that point on board. Our modernising government unit has closely monitored the roll-out of "Your Guide".
The pilot scheme in Leicestershire and Rutland has been mentioned. I share members' views that there should a limit to the number of pilot schemes. It would be better to assess the results of a pilot such as the one in Leicestershire and Rutland. Given the position of services in the round, it will come as no surprise to the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses in the gallery that evidence from the pilot shows that, although the public consider it a bit of a strain to go to a Government office, they trust a post office. I do not know whether they would do so if they were confronted by Christine Grahame. However, they were not asked that question.
The key factor is that people trust post offices, so one could reconfigure them to provide a comprehensive service. Every member who participated in the debate listed a range of services that one could get access to or information on in a post office. Those services could be supplied by the United Kingdom Government, the Scottish Government, local authorities, enterprise companies, tourist authorities, the utilities, leisure providers or financial services.
We await further results from the Leicestershire and Rutland study but, so far, it has not been made clear whether there is a genuine willingness among people to make a transaction payment. That issue is important for the decision on the viability of moving in the one-stop-shop direction.
I am grateful to Robert Brown for raising what is an important issue. The postal service is a reserved matter. Therefore, although I understand the importance of the points that members have raised about the proposed deregulation, that is not a matter on which I wish to comment. However, the Executive has a real locus in the question of service provision in rural areas even if it is not directly responsible for the running and administration of the post offices. Although my portfolio covers rural areas, I recognise the concerns that have been raised by members about service provision in peripheral and other urban areas, where the loss of that service would be just as detrimental.
The threat to the Post Office has been well articulated, the principal issue being the move to ACT. However, the Executive's concerns are not just about the threat to the Post Office. Euan Robson made the point that, if the footfall of people into post offices is reduced, not only the Post Office but other service providers in remote or urban areas may be threatened.
The matter that has been of most concern to me, as a minister, is the threat to service provision in general. The evidence shows that it is not just post offices, but other vital services that have been in decline in rural areas. That was why the Executive commissioned a report on the provision of services in rural areas. The report raised interesting facts and showed the need for a more diverse range of ideas about how to provide services in different parts of rural Scotland.
Under the current Government, there have been several developments concerning Post Office services. First, there was the Post Office's decision to proceed with the development of the Horizon technology and to roll out that technology to all post offices. There was also the question of developing the one-stop-shop approach, which I examined in detail when I visited Canada last year. However, those developments would mean that post offices and other services could not be retained as we know them. Service provision would have to be reconfigured to be made viable. The Executive has taken that point on board. Our modernising government unit has closely monitored the roll-out of "Your Guide".
The pilot scheme in Leicestershire and Rutland has been mentioned. I share members' views that there should a limit to the number of pilot schemes. It would be better to assess the results of a pilot such as the one in Leicestershire and Rutland. Given the position of services in the round, it will come as no surprise to the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses in the gallery that evidence from the pilot shows that, although the public consider it a bit of a strain to go to a Government office, they trust a post office. I do not know whether they would do so if they were confronted by Christine Grahame. However, they were not asked that question.
The key factor is that people trust post offices, so one could reconfigure them to provide a comprehensive service. Every member who participated in the debate listed a range of services that one could get access to or information on in a post office. Those services could be supplied by the United Kingdom Government, the Scottish Government, local authorities, enterprise companies, tourist authorities, the utilities, leisure providers or financial services.
We await further results from the Leicestershire and Rutland study but, so far, it has not been made clear whether there is a genuine willingness among people to make a transaction payment. That issue is important for the decision on the viability of moving in the one-stop-shop direction.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The final item of business is a members' business debate on motion S1M-2844, in the name of Robert Brown, on Scottish sub-post offices and "Your Guide".
Motion debated,
That the Parliament acknowledges the importance of the role that sub-post offices play in Scottish communities, particularly in rural areas and deprived urba...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
Let me begin by welcoming to the public gallery members of the National Federation of SubPostmasters, which represents nearly all the sub-post offices in the...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
A large number of members have indicated that they wish to take part in the debate, so I ask for speeches to be limited to three minutes. We will work out la...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
I welcome the fact that Robert Brown has initiated this debate and agree with many of the sentiments that he has expressed. We all agree on the pivotal role ...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
Over the past few weeks I have visited a number of small rural post offices and have heard the same story from sub-postmasters—they need support to continue ...
Susan Deacon (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Robert Brown on securing the debate. I also congratulate him on the content of his motion and on his contribution to the debate.There are occa...
Mr George Reid (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
On Monday of this week, I spoke to sub-postmasters and their clients in the small villages of the Forth valley—in Menstrie, Milnathort, Kinross and so on. On...
Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD):
LD
Peter Jamieson is a sub-postmaster in Sandness—a small community on the west side of Shetland. A long line of Jamiesons have run that sub-post office, which ...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
I am pleased to support Robert Brown's motion and am delighted to have the opportunity to support the post office movement in Scotland. I am also pleased, if...
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. May I move a motion to—
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Let me handle this, Mr Neil.
Alex Neil:
SNP
Okay.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
In the light of altered circumstances, we will change the advice that we gave previously.
Mr Gil Paterson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I sent out more than 2,000 letters, I surveyed 6,000 individuals, I lodged a parliamentary motion, and I presented a petition with 14,000 signatures—all on t...
Alex Neil:
SNP
At the second attempt, may I raise a point of order, Presiding Officer? May I move a motion to extend the debate, to allow everybody to speak on an important...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
I am minded to agree.
Motion moved,
That, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended to 6.15 pm.—Alex Neil.
Motion agreed to.
John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):
LD
As everybody knows, sub-post offices are an essential institution for rural Scotland. As everybody agrees, they are the hub of any small community and a life...
Cathy Peattie (Falkirk East) (Lab):
Lab
I congratulate Robert Brown on securing the debate and agree with many points that he made. I will risk Susan Deacon's shouting at me for talking about a res...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
I congratulate Robert Brown on securing the debate, which is on a fairly important matter. It has generated a great deal of interest and among the visitors i...
David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Some members who are present tonight will recall that some time ago I instigated a debate on the future of rural post offices. It was so long ago that John H...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Many members have said how essential our sub-post offices are to our rural communities, so I will not press that point. The Post Office is a reserved matter,...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
We are all working towards the same aim. On balance, does Mike Rumbles agree that the pilot schemes down south being regarded as successful negates the need ...
Mr Rumbles:
LD
That is a fair point, but all I am saying is that we should ensure that we analyse those pilot schemes carefully and not automatically implement their provis...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Rural post offices are essential to sustaining small communities economically and socially and must not wither on a commercial vine. When I lived in a villag...
Mr John Home Robertson (East Lothian) (Lab):
Lab
Christine Grahame's reference to sub-post offices in the rural Borders puts me in mind of the fact that the post offices where I live in the Borders, in Euan...