Chamber
Plenary, 23 Nov 2006
23 Nov 2006 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
During the previous session of Parliament, in 2002 to 2003, I tried to have hate crime legislation extended to all the groups that are identified under European employment law as subject to discrimination. That seemed to be the simplest way to get a list of groups that are subject regularly to discrimination. There are six such groups: women; the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community; minority communities on the basis of race; minority communities on the basis of religion; the elderly; and disabled people. I am absolutely convinced of the necessity for the bill because, at that time, the Executive, in discussions with Equality Scotland and in response to parliamentary questions that I asked, said that it could address our concerns, but through legislation other than that on hate crime. The bill is a proposal for that other kind of legislation.
The appalling and unbelievable level of mistreatment of elderly and disabled people is apparent in the research that Equality Scotland carried out in producing the proposal on hate crime. That situation has been one of the biggest surprises to me about what happens in our country—it is unconscionable. It is absolutely clear that the bill is not before time. However, I am conscious of the concerns that have been raised by Shona Robison, Roseanna Cunningham and Christine Grahame, who asked whether the bill will change anything.
One particular concern is that the bill could place pressure on carers, who might be alarmed by the idea that they, in a time of extreme pressure, without being able to seek the kind of help that carers need, might come to suffer. As Christine May observed, we now have a group in the Parliament that campaigns for more support to be given to carers, so it would be extremely sad if any carer was treated as if they were an abuser when the case might be one of neglect or even mistreatment that occurred under intense pressure of the sort that few members could imagine or comprehend.
My other concern is about parliamentary time between now and the election in May, because there is a parallel and linked bill—the Protection of Vulnerable Groups (Scotland) Bill—that will complete stage 1 at the beginning of the new year. That detailed bill is already attracting a huge amount of criticism. It supports the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill, and needs to be considered in that context.
I urge the Executive to take on all the concerns about the bill and to lodge as many stage 2 amendments as it can to address them. Otherwise, the Parliament should ask for more time to consider the bill. The Parliament may also want extra time to consider the Protection of Vulnerable Groups (Scotland) Bill. Those are two extremely important bills, and we should give them the time that they deserve. If we cannot get that time in this parliamentary session, they should be held over until the next session, so that we are able to make two really good pieces of legislation.
The appalling and unbelievable level of mistreatment of elderly and disabled people is apparent in the research that Equality Scotland carried out in producing the proposal on hate crime. That situation has been one of the biggest surprises to me about what happens in our country—it is unconscionable. It is absolutely clear that the bill is not before time. However, I am conscious of the concerns that have been raised by Shona Robison, Roseanna Cunningham and Christine Grahame, who asked whether the bill will change anything.
One particular concern is that the bill could place pressure on carers, who might be alarmed by the idea that they, in a time of extreme pressure, without being able to seek the kind of help that carers need, might come to suffer. As Christine May observed, we now have a group in the Parliament that campaigns for more support to be given to carers, so it would be extremely sad if any carer was treated as if they were an abuser when the case might be one of neglect or even mistreatment that occurred under intense pressure of the sort that few members could imagine or comprehend.
My other concern is about parliamentary time between now and the election in May, because there is a parallel and linked bill—the Protection of Vulnerable Groups (Scotland) Bill—that will complete stage 1 at the beginning of the new year. That detailed bill is already attracting a huge amount of criticism. It supports the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill, and needs to be considered in that context.
I urge the Executive to take on all the concerns about the bill and to lodge as many stage 2 amendments as it can to address them. Otherwise, the Parliament should ask for more time to consider the bill. The Parliament may also want extra time to consider the Protection of Vulnerable Groups (Scotland) Bill. Those are two extremely important bills, and we should give them the time that they deserve. If we cannot get that time in this parliamentary session, they should be held over until the next session, so that we are able to make two really good pieces of legislation.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-5042, in the name of Andy Kerr, that the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Adult Support...
The Deputy Minister for Health and Community Care (Lewis Macdonald):
Lab
We introduced the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill principally to provide support and protection for those people in our communities who are vuln...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Has the minister discussed the civil shrieval procedures that would have to take place? I see no mention of them. Will they be like interim interdicts? How w...
Lewis Macdonald:
Lab
We have taken appropriate advice on the procedures, to which I will be happy to return in the course of the afternoon to give Christine Grahame more detail o...
Shona Robison (Dundee East) (SNP):
SNP
The bill has had what I would describe as a difficult birth. Perhaps that is because, as I understand it, its origins lay with the Bichard proposals, from wh...
Mrs Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con):
Con
This may be a somewhat repetitive debate.As we know, the general purpose of the bill is to provide an overall framework of support and protection for adults ...
Euan Robson (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD):
LD
I am particularly pleased to take part in the debate. Legislation in this important area is clearly necessary.The reforms in part 1 of the bill are, frankly,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
It may be helpful if I indicate that at this stage in the debate I am not applying the normal time limits.
Euan Robson:
LD
Thank you. In that case, I will be slightly more expansive than I would otherwise have been.It is clear that statutory adult protection committees will be va...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
It is often said that the committee system is the heart and soul of what happens in the Scottish Parliament, combining as it does the functions of select and...
Janis Hughes (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab):
Lab
In my time on the Health Committee, we have scrutinised a raft of legislation on many subjects, and the bill is definitely up there with those that have enge...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
As some members might know, I come to the bill against the background of the Miss X case, in which a lady with learning difficulties suffered horrific abuse ...
Section 9, entitled “Examination of records etc”, says in subsection (1):
"A council officer may require any person holding health, financial or other records relating to an individual whom the officer knows or believes to be an ad...
Lewis Macdonald:
Lab
I seek clarification from Christine Grahame as to which places she thinks should not be included in the bill, because I think that the intention is evident.
Christine Grahame:
SNP
Such situations occur when people have capacity and against their will, but the bill would allow a council officer to go to their bank and look at their bank...
Euan Robson:
LD
The point is that if we put such committees on a statutory footing, there will be no doubt that they should exist. Although the Borders committee was born of...
Christine Grahame:
SNP
I cannot agree. The process is happening in many places in Scotland. The chief social work inspector could make plain through her guidance that that is what ...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
I think that I may be the only non-member of the Health Committee to participate in the debate so far.
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
No. Christine Grahame is not on the committee.
Christine May:
Lab
I beg Christine Grahame's pardon.It may come as a surprise to members, although I hope that it does not, to learn that we are all getting older. We hope that...
Dr Jean Turner (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Ind):
Ind
When I first started to read the bill, I realised that there was a need for people to be able to enter patients' homes to assess them but, as I read through ...
Christine May:
Lab
Does Dr Turner agree that some of the dreadful cases in the past have arisen because of reluctance to share such information?
Dr Turner:
Ind
Christine May is correct. People need training in how they should use and share information. I believe that people should share information. I also believe t...
Helen Eadie (Dunfermline East) (Lab):
Lab
I am in no doubt why the people of Scotland need the Adult Support and Protection (Scotland) Bill. It is clear to me, having sat through the Health Committee...
Christine May:
Lab
Yes I am.
Helen Eadie:
Lab
I am so sorry—I meant Christine Grahame, not Christine May.The response to those questions by Adrian Ward of the Law Society of Scotland was compelling. He s...
Shona Robison:
SNP
In which cases would the member think it appropriate to override the views of an adult with capacity who did not want an intervention?
Helen Eadie:
Lab
I will return to that point later in my speech. The point was covered by a Mr Graham, a physician who gave evidence to the committee on the bill.Mr Ward cont...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
During the previous session of Parliament, in 2002 to 2003, I tried to have hate crime legislation extended to all the groups that are identified under Europ...
Euan Robson:
LD
It should be clear to the minister from the debate that parts 2 to 4 of the bill will not cause him a great deal of difficulty. The interest will focus on pa...