Chamber
Plenary, 11 Mar 2004
11 Mar 2004 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Historic Environment
Well. How can I follow that? I congratulate Murray Tosh on an excellent speech.
The minister said in his introduction that our archaeological resource was second to none. Before I continue, I declare that I have been a member of Historic Scotland and the National Trust for Scotland for some considerable time. Will the minister commit to ensuring that archaeological help is available to the planning departments of all 32 councils in Scotland? Will he also commit to ensuring that archaeology is recognised sufficiently in the make-up of all committees that are concerned with our built environment, because I believe that there are still questions about that?
The minister made a welcome reference to developing skills, which is extremely important. Our UK Green Party manifesto states:
"Building systems should be investigated thoroughly to determine their true cost in comparison with traditional methods. Many of them are uneconomic on grounds not always immediately apparent, for instance, relying on imported components, high levels of maintenance, high running costs, etc. Their extensive use has also led to a lack of standardisation. Traditional building was, contrary to popular belief, highly standardised and dimensionally coordinated. A return to this quality of standardisation would cut down on much of the waste that is taken for granted in present building systems."
That might be something of an aside in the context of the debate, but it is an important one.
An Executive debate on the historic environment is a welcome development. Our historic environment, like the natural environment, has all too often been under-appreciated or taken for granted—many references to that have been made this afternoon. Dr Mary Baxter of Glasgow Caledonian University has commented:
"Heritage and the historic environment underpin tourism in Scotland but our research shows that it is not a priority for local authorities. It is always in the pictures of local authority plans but never in the text."
In a similar vein, the non-governmental sector historic environment review task force, of which the minister and everybody else here is well aware, commented:
"The impression that the historic environment is afforded insufficient priority within the Executive is evidenced by the fact that the sector as a whole is seriously under resourced; is managed within a box; and as a result, it is insufficiently protected, managed and maintained."
In the briefing material provided by the four organisations and umbrella organisations, the same messages have come through repeatedly. First, more information on the state of Scotland's historic environment is needed. Secondly, there is a need to address resourcing for the historic environment at all levels of government. Thirdly, community involvement, which Sylvia Jackson referred to, is an important issue in this context—community involvement with the historic environment is an under-acknowledged aspect of social inclusion.
Like the natural environment, the historic environment is all around us and its care does not fall easily within the gift of any one organisation. Many buildings, particularly those built of soft sandstone, are part of our contemporary residential and business infrastructure as well as of our historic heritage and are under threat from air pollution and vehicle emissions. To a great extent, Scotland's wild areas are cultural landscapes and, as such, represent an overlap between the historic environment and the natural environment. A characteristic that is shared by both environments is that they are all too frequently undervalued. The importance of those environments to tourism has, thankfully, been gaining increasing recognition. We need to know how the ministerial group on tourism will deliver on its stated aim to support the sector across all portfolios.
The minister said in his introduction that our archaeological resource was second to none. Before I continue, I declare that I have been a member of Historic Scotland and the National Trust for Scotland for some considerable time. Will the minister commit to ensuring that archaeological help is available to the planning departments of all 32 councils in Scotland? Will he also commit to ensuring that archaeology is recognised sufficiently in the make-up of all committees that are concerned with our built environment, because I believe that there are still questions about that?
The minister made a welcome reference to developing skills, which is extremely important. Our UK Green Party manifesto states:
"Building systems should be investigated thoroughly to determine their true cost in comparison with traditional methods. Many of them are uneconomic on grounds not always immediately apparent, for instance, relying on imported components, high levels of maintenance, high running costs, etc. Their extensive use has also led to a lack of standardisation. Traditional building was, contrary to popular belief, highly standardised and dimensionally coordinated. A return to this quality of standardisation would cut down on much of the waste that is taken for granted in present building systems."
That might be something of an aside in the context of the debate, but it is an important one.
An Executive debate on the historic environment is a welcome development. Our historic environment, like the natural environment, has all too often been under-appreciated or taken for granted—many references to that have been made this afternoon. Dr Mary Baxter of Glasgow Caledonian University has commented:
"Heritage and the historic environment underpin tourism in Scotland but our research shows that it is not a priority for local authorities. It is always in the pictures of local authority plans but never in the text."
In a similar vein, the non-governmental sector historic environment review task force, of which the minister and everybody else here is well aware, commented:
"The impression that the historic environment is afforded insufficient priority within the Executive is evidenced by the fact that the sector as a whole is seriously under resourced; is managed within a box; and as a result, it is insufficiently protected, managed and maintained."
In the briefing material provided by the four organisations and umbrella organisations, the same messages have come through repeatedly. First, more information on the state of Scotland's historic environment is needed. Secondly, there is a need to address resourcing for the historic environment at all levels of government. Thirdly, community involvement, which Sylvia Jackson referred to, is an important issue in this context—community involvement with the historic environment is an under-acknowledged aspect of social inclusion.
Like the natural environment, the historic environment is all around us and its care does not fall easily within the gift of any one organisation. Many buildings, particularly those built of soft sandstone, are part of our contemporary residential and business infrastructure as well as of our historic heritage and are under threat from air pollution and vehicle emissions. To a great extent, Scotland's wild areas are cultural landscapes and, as such, represent an overlap between the historic environment and the natural environment. A characteristic that is shared by both environments is that they are all too frequently undervalued. The importance of those environments to tourism has, thankfully, been gaining increasing recognition. We need to know how the ministerial group on tourism will deliver on its stated aim to support the sector across all portfolios.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-1033, in the name of Frank McAveety, on the historic environment as a valuable resource for Scotland, and...
The Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport (Mr Frank McAveety):
Lab
Scotland's heritage: what is it? It is the broad panoply of our inherited and contemporary culture, which the First Minister, in his St Andrew's day speech, ...
Murray Tosh (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Given what the minister has just said, has the Executive any proposals to conserve and preserve Castle Tioram in Moidart, which Graeme Munro described a coup...
Mr McAveety:
Lab
We have already held discussions on that matter. Obviously, a number of planning issues relate to the site that the member has mentioned and some of the disc...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):
Lab
Does the minister agree that one of the very important aspects of restoring historic buildings such as the Tolbooth in Stirling is not to forget the communit...
Mr McAveety:
Lab
And the CD will be available shortly.I was about to talk about our role in developing opportunities to ensure that our heritage is available to as many peopl...
Mr Ted Brocklebank (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
Will the minister take an intervention?
Mr McAveety:
Lab
I do not know whether I have time to do so.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
The minister is in his final few minutes.
Mr McAveety:
Lab
We recently published the review of Historic Scotland. I believe that that review, along with personnel changes in the near future, will drive forward a diff...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
I was absolutely with the minister right up to his final phrase. I could not have agreed more with everything he said before that. However, my problem is tha...
Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
In this country, we have priceless historical assets and the rest of the world simply cannot understand why we do so little with them. There seems to be a mi...
Donald Gorrie (Central Scotland) (LD):
LD
I declare an interest: I put into my curriculum vitae that one of my interests is visiting ruins. Nowadays, I should add "visiting the Falkirk wheel", as we ...
Christine May (Central Fife) (Lab):
Lab
First, I must declare an interest. I am a trustee of the Fife Historic Buildings Trust.I invite members to imagine Scotland without castles, great gardens, f...
Mr Brocklebank:
Con
I agree fully with what Christine May said about the wonderful historic buildings throughout Scotland, but does she agree that the recent decision to stop hi...
Christine May:
Lab
Any change like that is bound to cause difficulties, and if there is a case for reviewing the change, I would support it.A number of things could be done to ...
Alasdair Morgan (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I am busily wondering how I can get lime mortar from B&Q—perhaps I will put it on my list. Moreover, following Donald Gorrie's request for re-enactments, I l...
John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD):
LD
Last month, I welcomed the Executive's decision to keep Historic Scotland as an agency of the Executive. However, it is essential that the minister, Mr McAve...
Murray Tosh (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
In his opening remarks, the minister identified Scotland's combination of heritage and culture as an integral part of its unique selling point. We all agree ...
Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green):
Green
Well. How can I follow that? I congratulate Murray Tosh on an excellent speech. The minister said in his introduction that our archaeological resource was se...
Rhona Brankin (Midlothian) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest, as I am a member of the board of trustees of the Scottish Mining Museum and a member of the National Trust for Scotland and the Archit...
Brian Adam (Aberdeen North) (SNP):
SNP
I am happy to speak in support of the SNP amendment—I am delighted by the fact that the substance of what Rhona Brankin said was so supportive of it. It woul...
Murray Tosh:
Con
I would not like to be accused of concentrating on a single building; I was being mindful of the time. An equally respectable case could be made for conservi...
Brian Adam:
SNP
I note the member's significant contribution and hope that he will pay attention when he accuses me of misusing interventions in future.I would like to take ...
Chris Ballance (South of Scotland) (Green):
Green
I echo many of Roseanna Cunningham's comments on the motion. It strikes me as quite extraordinary that members of the Labour and Liberal parties feel that th...
Murray Tosh:
Con
A more strategic point is that, in the five years of its existence, the Parliament has had several debates on GM crops and has been promised more. I think th...
Chris Ballance:
Green
I do not propose to go down that road further than the comments that I have made. However, I point out that Conservative members voted for the Green party am...
Maureen Macmillan (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
I declare an interest; I actually live in an historic house. It is a B-listed building and a great delight to me. It is one of the lovely Georgian manses tha...
Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):
LD
I, too, wish to declare an interest—in the area where I was born and grew up, a part of which I now represent. The Borders has had a turbulent history. The t...
Mr Ted Brocklebank (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I, too, have a declaration of interest, as the producer of the latest television documentary series on the National Trust for Scotland, "A Matter of Trust". ...