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Every contribution to the Official Report — chamber and committee — searchable in one place. Pulled from data.parliament.scot, indexed for full-text search, linked through to every MSP.

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Showing 60 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Members will be aware of my background in building. I would not have approached the project in this way, but we must accept that this is the way in which it has been done, and that both the Auditor General and the Audit Committee have reported on that approach.With my tongue s...
Mr Nick Johnston (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): Con Chamber
18 Nov 1999
Scottish Economy
Like John Swinney, I was astounded to be told at a recent meeting of the Enterprise and Lifelong Learning Committee that Scotland has no national strategy. That view was also expressed recently by Ray Perman, chief executive of Scottish Financial Enterprise. He attacked the Go...
The Deputy Convener (Nick Johnston): Con Committee
26 Sep 2000
Holyrood Project
Good afternoon. This is the Audit Committee's first meeting on the costs and management of the Holyrood Parliament building project, following the publication of the Auditor General's report and his presentation to the committee last week. We will hold another meeting next Tue...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
26 Sep 2000
Holyrood Project
What the committee would like to know in this context is whether any attempt was made to negotiate a fee or whether it was just accepted, in the view of someone in the organisation, that it would not be acceptable to the sort of architect who would be attracted to the competit...
The Deputy Convener (Mr Nick Johnston): Con Committee
03 Oct 2000
Holyrood Project
Good afternoon. Welcome to this, our second meeting dealing with the costs and management of the Holyrood Parliament building project. Our witnesses today are Mr Paul Grice, the clerk to the Parliament—who, I believe, has risen Lazarus-like from his sick bed to be with us this...
The Deputy Convener (Nick Johnston): Con Committee
24 Oct 2000
Holyrood Project
In the words of "Watch with Mother", if we are all sitting comfortably, then I will begin. Good afternoon and welcome to the 17th meeting this year of the Audit Committee. This is our third session on the costs and management of the Holyrood Parliament building project. I welc...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
19 Dec 2000
Holyrood
Item 2 concerns the new Scottish Parliament building. When we produced our report on the Holyrood project, I asked the clerk whether he would approach the conveners group with the aim of securing a debate on the report in Parliament. He informed me that it is not for me but fo...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
19 Dec 2000
Holyrood
We have two proposals: we can apply now to the conveners group for a debate in Parliament or we can wait until we receive the response from the Executive—around the beginning of February—before applying for such a debate. The question is, that the Audit Committee agrees to def...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I apologise for having been ill; this item should have been on the agenda at our previous meeting, but the committee kindly agreed to wait until I was back. If it had not done so, that would have created slight difficulties since, as members know, Andrew Welsh has removed hims...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
We are giving you, as a visitor, the opportunity to dive in.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I should remind the committee that we decided to draw a line at the time the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body was set up, and it is not our role to project into the future. The Finance Committee has assigned a reporter to this issue and will examine the SPCB's budget prop...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Thank you. However, although your comments are helpful, the decision is for the committee, not for a visitor to the committee.I am sorry; I did not see which member had their hand up first. Let us be terribly sexist and defer to the ladies.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I think that the committee has accepted that.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I take your point on that, and we will come to it at some stage. The matter that I want to get out of the way is where we go in future and whether we should ask the conveners group for a committee slot to discuss the report.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I do not think that that was quite our remit. However, we will excuse your ignorance.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Raking over the past is one way of putting it. We were inquiring into the project at the date on which we drew a line under it.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I am sorry, Lloyd, but you are wrong. The report that is in front of us is the report that was published.I suggest that we do not put the matter to a vote, as it is obvious which way members would vote. Let us examine the responses and determine whether the committee wants to ...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Are there any comments on the second response?
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Okay. We note that point. Are there any comments on the second response? The Executive is giving a grudging nod to the fact that we said that there was some confusion.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
We would not have expected it to do so.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Margo MacDonald was ever the optimist.Let us move on to our conclusion 3, which is that"There should have been much greater transparency in the cost reporting arrangements."
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
The only comment that I would make is to ask: when is a concern a criticism? That, however, possibly takes us into the realms of semantics.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Where the paper shows "n/a", it means that the SPCB was not involved at the time to which the conclusion refers, as it was before the corporate body took over. We are concerned only with the Executive, which stepped into the role of the old Scottish Office in responding to our...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
The Executive said at one stage that it did not think that the evidence that we had taken justified the conclusion that we came to.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Shall we show the Executive the video? Possibly we should make a recommendation that videos of evidence-taking sessions should accompany the written word.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
What do you think the committee should do about that? Do we want to have a ping-pong of letters going backwards and forwards?
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I agree; we have made the point. It would waste everybody's time if we started such an exchange of letters.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Yes—the point is that the Executive has accepted the committee's recommendation. I am noting down members' comments and, at the end of this item, we will see whether there is enough substance to justify a response that is slightly more robust than quibbling about one sentence....
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
This is where we start to come up against the SPCB—the Executive has obviously done a side swerve on the increase in the forecast construction costs after the transfer of client responsibility. It is not taking any responsibility after the handover. We encountered that grey ar...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Again, while we take your point, Margo, and although you have been very concerned with the detail, we were examining the Auditor General's response. I think that it is slightly disingenuous of the Executive to come back and try to convince us that stage D was settled. If it wa...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
If we decided to write about that, we could reinforce that point.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
It is interesting but not particularly relevant. The Auditor General's staff will no doubt correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the report says that the redesign of the chamber happened to have significant financial effect.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
If the committee wishes, we can take up that point with Paul Grice.We move on to the Executive's response to conclusion 7. The conclusion and response are a bit he-said-she-said. The Executive regrets that we do not have confidence in the former accountable officer's view. The...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
We move on to the response to conclusion 8. Do not worry: there are only 53 conclusions; there are not many more.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
The project was not the Executive's responsibility.The only thing that I picked up on conclusion 8 was that"the SPCB proceeded with the project on the basis of Parliament's instructions."That brings us back to Margo MacDonald's point about what the Parliament's instructions we...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I wonder what checks and balances there are to ensure that such things are reported. That is just my individual musing. It does not really refer to the Auditor General's report.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I am sorry, Margo: where is that in Paul Grice's letter?
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Do you mean in the paragraph that begins"Following the Auditor General's report"?
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I do not know. I cannot really answer that question.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Is there a specific question that we want to ask the Auditor General? I think that we are probably getting into areas that are more speculation than evidence-based. I am quite happy to go back to Paul Grice and ask questions based on his letter, but I am not sure which specifi...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
It was not withheld from the public. It was withheld from the corporate body. That was the point; it was not reported to the corporate body.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I am not sure that the corporate body has ever reported to Parliament.I shall certainly ask Paul Grice what he bases the statement on, if we decide to write at all.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Our report said that we felt that the SPCB's response to the Spencely report was encouraging. We said that the progress group added an element of independent scrutiny. It is noted that there is now a settled design and cost plan in place. All that Paul Grice is saying is that ...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
With respect, Margo, the SPCB was not asked that question.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Sorry, what was the last bit? I missed it.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
With respect, that matter is really nothing to do with what we are talking about. We will suggest that another committee is needed to examine the Holyrood project.What are we saying about the response to conclusion 11? Scott Barrie thinks that that answers the queries that Llo...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Members' comments have been noted.I think that recommendation 1 deals with the point that Paul Martin made earlier.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
We recommended that the accountable officers should"consider carefully their responsibilities to answer to Ministers and to the Parliament".The Executive is saying that it tried to address that point. When people look back at our report, it will be judged in the light of wheth...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
It has given us as grudging an acceptance as it could possibly have been expected to.Recommendation 3 refers to the evidence that the chief architect gave us. If we allow excessive figures for risk, there is no incentive for managers to try to come in on budget. The Executive ...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
I think that we accept that the Auditor General exists to say that such actions have not been taken.Paul Martin and Lloyd Quinan both suggested that we might have to revisit conclusion 4.Does the committee want me to draw up a letter on conclusions 6, 9 and 11? Conclusion 11 w...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Okay.The substantive point in relation to conclusion 6 came from Paul Grice, who said:"the Committee has under-estimated the financial effect of the re-design of the chamber."We could ask the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body what its estimate of the financial effect of th...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
He is the chair of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, is he not?
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
That is a good recommendation.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Yes.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
That issue was fairly well covered in the Auditor General's report. I am not sure that we will get any more information than the Auditor General did. With respect, I think that you are asking for that information because you were not involved with the committee's consideration...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body had nothing to do with the original spec.
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Can you wait a minute, Margo, while the frantic search for the errant mobile phone concludes?
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
If we are writing this letter anyway, there will be no problem in asking for that information for the historical record.Conclusion 9 concerns the last paragraph on page 2 of Paul Grice's letter. It is fairly clear what we are doing. I know that Scott Barrie believes that the p...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
That would have to be the subject of a new inquiry by the Auditor General. At some stage, we could write to him to ask about value for money. It would then be up to him to decide whether his resources would allow him to conduct an inquiry and whether that would be a valid use ...
The Deputy Convener: Con Committee
20 Mar 2001
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
That will be for a future Audit Committee to decide.
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Committee

Audit Committee, 20 Mar 2001

20 Mar 2001 · S1 · Audit Committee
Item of business
“The New Scottish Parliament Building”
Johnston, Nick Con Mid Scotland and Fife Watch on SPTV
Members will be aware of my background in building. I would not have approached the project in this way, but we must accept that this is the way in which it has been done, and that both the Auditor General and the Audit Committee have reported on that approach.With my tongue slightly in my cheek, I draw the committee's attention to the part of the document that tells us that the Scottish Executive believes that the Parliament"will be able to track progress with these projects through subsequent Budget Bill information and the published accounts."I must say that I have not yet seen any evidence of the process being transparent enough for the Parliament to be able to track it. However, that is a problem for the future and I expect that the Finance Committee will consider it.On recommendation 4, we read that independent scrutiny will reinforce project monitoring.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Convener: Con
I apologise for having been ill; this item should have been on the agenda at our previous meeting, but the committee kindly agreed to wait until I was back. ...
Ms Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (SNP): SNP
Is nobody else going to speak first?
The Deputy Convener: Con
We are giving you, as a visitor, the opportunity to dive in.
Ms MacDonald: SNP
The letter to the committee from Paul Grice is well crafted, but it does not disguise the fact that, when the subject was last debated in Parliament, Parliam...
Mr Raffan: LD
Although I was not present at the inquiry, I was present at debates on the building and was opposed to the project at that time. However, Paul Grice's letter...
The Deputy Convener: Con
I should remind the committee that we decided to draw a line at the time the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body was set up, and it is not our role to proj...
Ms MacDonald: SNP
I ask the committee to do so. At one point, Mr Grice's letter says that as"the Project spend is comfortably within cash allocations for this year and next … ...
The Deputy Convener: Con
Thank you. However, although your comments are helpful, the decision is for the committee, not for a visitor to the committee.I am sorry; I did not see which...
Margaret Jamieson: Lab
Margo MacDonald is paying particular attention to Paul Grice's letter, but he is advising us of the current situation as a matter of courtesy. Asking for suc...
Mr Lloyd Quinan (West of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
I appreciate both what Margaret Jamieson says and the fact that I was not a member of the committee when that decision was made. In light of the letter from ...
Margaret Jamieson: Lab
I do not have a problem with that, but I think that that falls outwith the remits of the Auditor General's report and the committee. We are not to consider t...
The Deputy Convener: Con
I think that the committee has accepted that.
Scott Barrie: Lab
We may be focusing unduly on Paul Grice's letter. I hoped that we would consider the responses that we received, particularly that from the Scottish Executiv...
The Deputy Convener: Con
I take your point on that, and we will come to it at some stage. The matter that I want to get out of the way is where we go in future and whether we should ...
Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): Lab
I would not support our proceeding to a slot in the chamber. We must consider the report and whether lessons have been learned from the civil service's role ...
Mr Raffan: LD
I agree with much of what Paul Martin and Margaret Jamieson said. I am unsure what point a debate would serve at this juncture. I have a feeling that it woul...
The Deputy Convener: Con
I do not think that that was quite our remit. However, we will excuse your ignorance.
Mr Raffan: LD
I know that you were raking over the past and whether there are lessons to be learned from it.
The Deputy Convener: Con
Raking over the past is one way of putting it. We were inquiring into the project at the date on which we drew a line under it.
Mr Quinan: SNP
I accept what Paul Martin is saying. We cannot consider competing for a slot in the chamber, as the issue also affects the Finance Committee. You are proposi...
The Deputy Convener: Con
I am sorry, Lloyd, but you are wrong. The report that is in front of us is the report that was published.I suggest that we do not put the matter to a vote, a...
The Deputy Convener: Con
Are there any comments on the second response?
Mr Quinan: SNP
What I just said refers directly to the Audit Committee's conclusion, that"it is imperative that the highest standards of financial management are achieved."...
Margaret Jamieson: Lab
Are we talking about the first response?
Mr Quinan: SNP
We are talking about the Audit Committee's conclusion and the first response.
Margaret Jamieson: Lab
I thought that we had agreed that.
The Deputy Convener: Con
Okay. We note that point. Are there any comments on the second response? The Executive is giving a grudging nod to the fact that we said that there was some ...
Ms MacDonald: SNP
Unfortunately, the Executive has not said that it was responsible for the confusion.
The Deputy Convener: Con
We would not have expected it to do so.
Ms MacDonald: SNP
I would have—it is hands-up-and-own-up time.