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Showing 60 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Thank you. Committee members will have several questions to put to you, Mr Hathorn.The opening statement of your submission makes it clear that the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland is"fully supportive of the Scottish Executive's move to Resource Accounting and Bu...
The Convener: Lab Committee
06 Mar 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Could you comment on the situation in the UK, in as much as you are aware of it, and in as much as we are setting resource accounting and budgeting in a different context? I take on board your point about bean counters and about how RAB might be viewed as some kind of compartm...
The Convener: Lab Committee
30 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
What you say about jamjar accounting leads me to my second point, which is on three-year budgeting and to which you referred in your opening statement. You said that three-year budgeting was not yet a reality. I cannot reconcile that with the statement that jamjar accounting i...
The Convener: Lab Committee
06 Feb 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
On the question of staffing to deliver the new system, will Mr Russell say something about the numbers and skills mix of the accounting staff at Scottish Power? To pick up the point that Professor Sizer made on capital accounting being used to inform managers—he talked about i...
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
In your paper, you mention the difficulties caused by adopting accrual accounting. Will you say something about those difficulties, particularly whether they are associated simply with the transition to resource accounting and budgeting or whether they are likely to be more lo...
The Convener: Lab Committee
30 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Your health service experience underpins much of what you have said today—notwithstanding your other experience. The committee has received written evidence from Dr Jean Shaoul, from the Manchester University school of accounting and finance, who will give oral evidence in a c...
The Convener: Lab Committee
06 Mar 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Thank you for that introduction, which complemented your written submission.I will start the questioning. Your written submission says—you repeated it today—that resource accounting and budgeting was not undertaken in isolation, but was part of management reforms in New Zealan...
The Convener: Lab Committee
06 Mar 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
In your written submission, you make the point that New Zealand has one accountancy system, and that the public and private sectors are as one in that respect. You discuss the recognition of the need for Government agencies to recruit accountants from the market place at the g...
The Convener: Lab Committee
19 Sep 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
We move now to agenda item 3. I apologise for keeping Irvine Lapsley and Brian Ashcroft waiting during the previous item.Subsequent to our meeting last week, Professor Lapsley has prepared a briefing paper on resource accounting and budgeting. It is unlikely that members have ...
The Convener: Lab Committee
19 Sep 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Professor Lapsley mentioned the sustainability of the golden rule. I am still not clear about that: the golden rule is not a new concept, so why would resource accounting and budgeting make the golden rule potentially unsustainable?
The Convener: Lab Committee
03 Oct 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Members have before them FI/00/23/2, a detailed draft remit for the committee's inquiry into resource accounting and budgeting. It has been drawn up in conjunction with Professor Lapsley.
The Convener: Lab Committee
30 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Good morning, Mr Renwick. Thank you for agreeing to assist our inquiry into resource accounting and budgeting. We have received and read your submission with interest, and we will put questions to you on it. First, I invite you to make an opening statement
The Convener: Lab Committee
30 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Thank you for that interesting expansion of some of the points that you made in your paper.I will ask you a question that you may answer from your experience in the national health service. Last week Mike Hathorn, of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, talked a...
The Convener: Lab Committee
30 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
You described the artificiality in the NHS. Surely that applies to other parts of the public sector when resource accounting and budgeting is introduced. How might the problems that the NHS encountered be overcome? Are there useful lessons to be learned from its experience?
The Convener: Lab Committee
13 Feb 2001
Resource Accounting<br />and Budgeting
It may be difficult to relate the two substantially different approaches that you are taking, but in your paper, Dr Shaoul, you said that the question of capital charging and so on"challenges the myth of public sector management inefficiency."When you talked about an increase ...
The Convener: Lab Committee
20 Nov 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting Inquiry
Because we have run over time, I ask members to agree that agenda item 3, on resource accounting and budgeting, be postponed until our next meeting. Is that agreed?Members indicated agreement.
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Is there a trend in other European Union member states towards using accrual accounting?
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
You have made the fairly fundamental point that many managers continue to think that RAB has no benefits, although it has existed in the public sector for some time, especially in the health service. Will that attitude ever be overcome? I can understand the difficulty of chang...
The Convener: Lab Committee
06 Feb 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
You mentioned earlier that health boards operate a system of cash accounting, whereas trusts are run on an income and expenditure basis. Has that caused any difficulties in the way that they relate to each other?
The Convener: Lab Committee
06 Feb 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
The new boards will absorb people from trusts who have gained experience of income and expenditure accounting, so the boards' management will not be entirely new to that system.
The Convener: Lab Committee
06 Feb 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
In reply to Professor Sizer's comment, we have not yet taken evidence from the Scottish Executive, but we will see Peter Collings and the head of the accounting section, so we will be given a more rounded picture as our inquiry progresses.
The Convener: Lab Committee
13 Feb 2001
Resource Accounting<br />and Budgeting
We return to public session for item 3. I am pleased to welcome Hugh Hall, the chairman of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy Scotland. I also welcome Dr Jean Shaoul from the school of accounting and finance of the University of Manchester. This is her s...
The Convener: Lab Committee
06 Mar 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
That last point could perhaps be summed up by saying that a three-year revaluation of assets is good for Government accounting but bad for opossums.
The Convener: Lab Committee
06 Mar 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
That concludes the questions that we want to put to you. Thank you for the extremely valuable assistance that you have given to the Scottish Parliament's Finance Committee in our inquiry. We will send you our report in due course. It has been valuable to have the benefit of yo...
The Convener: Lab Committee
06 Nov 2001
Private Finance Initiative/Public-Private Partnerships Inquiry
I would like to ask about resource accounting and budgeting—which you considered in detail earlier this year—and generally accepted accounting practices in the public sector. Is there no evidence that the public sector will begin to think differently? Do you have evidence of t...
Mike Watson: Lab Chamber
13 Dec 2000
Budget Process 2001-02: Stage 2
I accept that point; I will come on to address it. We must find a means of ensuring that the difficulties that emerged this year do not recur. Of course we are aware that every two years—or possibly every three years—similar problems will arise, and we must find a way out of t...
The Convener: Lab Committee
07 Mar 2000
Accounting Policies
There were four papers on my e-mail this morning from the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, about accounting standard setting and so on.There are an unusual number of papers for this week's committee because there are an unusual number of items on the agenda. All...
Mike Watson: Lab Committee
26 Oct 2004
Budget Process 2005-06
I have one final point. I was convener of the previous Finance Committee three years ago when we produced a report on resource accounting and budgeting, which would be an adequate substitute for Mogadon any time—the subject, not the report. I notice that there is a standard fi...
The Convener (Mike Watson): Lab Committee
19 Sep 2000
Scottish Parliament<br />Finance Committee<br />Tuesday 19 September 2000<br />(Morning)
I call the meeting to order. Please switch off mobile phones and set pagers to buzz.The agenda has been circulated as usual. Members have two additional papers before them. One is from the Minister for Finance and we will deal with it under item 4. The other is a note with com...
The Convener: Lab Committee
19 Sep 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
It strikes me that we are getting into detailed areas now. After last week's briefing there was a feeling that this issue might merit wider consideration, and perhaps even an inquiry. How do members feel about that? Andrew Wilson more or less signified that it might be a good ...
The Convener: Lab Committee
19 Sep 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Some of the points that David Davidson raised will, I presume, be dealt with by the Local Government Committee, which is considering local government finance. We will have to be careful not to cover the same ground, although we could benefit from the evidence that it takes. No...
The Convener: Lab Committee
19 Sep 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
I see that there is general approval that we undertake an inquiry. We are pretty well tied up until the end of the year, but Callum Thomson has suggested that we invite written evidence as soon as possible, with a view to taking oral evidence at the end of the year. It would b...
The Convener: Lab Committee
19 Sep 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
We will finalise a remit at the next meeting, although a number of the key issues that we would like to look at have helpfully been listed in Professor Lapsley's note to us today. I thank Professor Ashcroft and Professor Lapsley for their invaluable contribution.We will now mo...
The Convener: Lab Committee
03 Oct 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Does the committee agree in principle to appoint an adviser to assist the committee with the inquiry?
The Convener: Lab Committee
03 Oct 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
We will have to consider that on 24 October, in our first meeting after the recess.Are we agreed on the remit and that we will have an adviser?Members indicated agreement.
The Convener: Lab Committee
03 Oct 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
As the draft work programme says, we will not be considering the inquiry until 5 December, so it is not terribly pressing at this stage.
The Convener: Lab Committee
03 Oct 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Thank you very much, Professor. We now move into private session to consider agenda items 5 and 6.
The Convener: Lab Committee
31 Oct 2000
Salmon Conservation (Scotland) Bill
This committee cannot resolve the matter. We simply have to note that there will be a requirement for a financial resolution in relation to the Salmon Conservation (Scotland) Bill.Item 6 is on our inquiry into resource accounting and budgeting. As already agreed, items 6 and 7...
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Items in Private
That is a large chunk of the agenda, but there are fairly obvious reasons for taking those items in private. We will take a short break after item 4 to ensure that the equipment for the presentation on resource accounting and budgeting is in good working order. Before we go in...
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
I am pleased to welcome our three visitors from the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, who will be giving us a briefing. We appreciate the fact that Mr Sore and Mr Stanford have come from London. It is very kind of you to take the time to give us this brief...
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Thank you very much for that interesting and clear description. I noted wryly your reference to Harry Potter's comments about accountants, which reminded me of the comment that actuaries are accountants who cannot stand the excitement. This must be an exciting time for you and...
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Thank you for your introduction. The slides and the handout have been helpful. Although not all committee members are here, all members will receive a copy of the handout. Members will also be able to follow your comments in detail in the Official Report.My first question is, ...
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
It is a best value thing, is it?
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
On your last point, the system that we have in the Scottish Parliament will make our job a bit easier—certainly in relation to the yearly budget process—and will, we hope, make the information that we produce in our budget reports more meaningful. Mr Stanford, you referred to ...
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Considering the matter objectively, what is your best estimate as to how quickly RAB will be fully up and running with all the systems to which you referred in place, such as staff training and cultural shifts? I accept that you can only give an estimate.
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Before Holland?
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
That is a plea for higher staffing in respect of accountancy.
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
We are running a bit short of time. I know that Professor Lapsley of the University of Edinburgh has a point to make. As you may know, Professor Lapsley has been advising the committee on the budget process.
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
On that note, I thank our witnesses for their presentation and for responding to questions. The information that you have provided will help us greatly to understand RAB and its application. Thank you for making yourselves available to the committee this morning.
The Convener: Lab Committee
14 Nov 2000
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
I am sure that we shall.That concludes our business for this morning. I remind members that we will meet again in Aberdeen on Monday 20 November.
The Convener: Lab Committee
20 Nov 2000
Budget Process
I want to move into a slightly different area and cover two issues, one of which we flagged up to you in advance, which is the link between inputs and outputs and how that translates into outcomes. How will the measurements in "Making a Difference for Scotland" be made on a de...
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Scottish Parliament<br />Finance Committee<br />Tuesday 16 January 2001<br />(Morning)
We will proceed to agenda item 3, on how the committee should handle our inquiry into resource accounting and budgeting, and return to item 2 when appropriate.
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
We return to public session for the next agenda item. I am pleased to welcome Mike Hathorn, the convener of the public sector committee of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland. Thank you for the paper that you submitted to us, which we have read with interest. I ...
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Vive la différence.
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
As your paper makes clear, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland's enthusiasm for the system is not widely shared as yet. You say that"it is questionable whether there has been sufficient acceptance of the benefits to be gained by its full implementation".What mig...
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
So you suggest a two-year transitional period—although I accept that that is not set in stone.
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
That was clearly the import of Dr Shaoul's paper, which we will come to in due course.
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Andrew Wilson and Adam Ingram want to speak. Is it on this subject?
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Thank you, Mr Hathorn. That has been very useful. This is the start of the taking of evidence in our RAB inquiry; there will be several further sessions. That has got us off on a good foot. Thank you for your paper and for answering our questions.
The Convener: Lab Committee
16 Jan 2001
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
I apologise to everybody for the inadequate heating. It is not the first time that the heating has been inadequate. I will write to facilities management about it. The heating is a contributory factor to my calling a brief adjournment.
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Committee

Finance Committee, 16 Jan 2001

16 Jan 2001 · S1 · Finance Committee
Item of business
Resource Accounting and Budgeting
Watson, Mike Lab Glasgow Cathcart Watch on SPTV
Thank you. Committee members will have several questions to put to you, Mr Hathorn.The opening statement of your submission makes it clear that the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland is"fully supportive of the Scottish Executive's move to Resource Accounting and Budgeting".What was the public sector committee's view of resource accounting and budgeting before the Scottish Executive announced its intention? Were you advocating it in advance? Have you been in favour of it for some time or is your position simply a reaction to the Scottish Executive's announcement that it would adopt the system?

In the same item of business

The Convener: Lab
We return to public session for the next agenda item. I am pleased to welcome Mike Hathorn, the convener of the public sector committee of the Institute of C...
Mike Hathorn (Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland):
Thank you for including the institute in your consultation. As we state in our paper, the institute fully supports the Scottish Executive's move to resource ...
The Convener: Lab
Thank you. Committee members will have several questions to put to you, Mr Hathorn.The opening statement of your submission makes it clear that the Institute...
Mike Hathorn:
The institute's public sector committee is drawn from a wide range of accountants, who are involved in management, the public sector and the Scottish Executi...
The Convener: Lab
Is there a trend in other European Union member states towards using accrual accounting?
Mike Hathorn:
Yes. When the IFAC public sector committee met in Paris in April, the French Government announced at a dinner that it hosted for us that it was moving toward...
The Convener: Lab
Vive la différence.
Mike Hathorn:
Indeed. We also had a conference in Amsterdam in October, at which the Dutch Government announced a six-year programme to adopt accrual accounting. Three or ...
The Convener: Lab
In your paper, you mention the difficulties caused by adopting accrual accounting. Will you say something about those difficulties, particularly whether they...
Mike Hathorn:
There are a number of short-term issues—education and training, for example. The introduction of new information technology systems, procedures and processes...
The Convener: Lab
As your paper makes clear, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland's enthusiasm for the system is not widely shared as yet. You say that"it is que...
Mike Hathorn:
When resource accounting was first proposed in the UK, my committee was concerned that the timetable was far too short. We could see that a number of the dif...
The Convener: Lab
So you suggest a two-year transitional period—although I accept that that is not set in stone.
Elaine Thomson (Aberdeen North) (Lab): Lab
I would like to follow up on the point about training. You said that you cannot be sure of the number of extra accountants that might be required. Are you su...
Mike Hathorn:
It would be wrong for me to say, "One needs so many qualified accountants in addition to what we have." I would prefer to say that we need to recognise that ...
Elaine Thomson: Lab
Are you saying that, in the past, many of the people who looked after accountancy in the public sector, however experienced and skilled they may have been in...
Mike Hathorn:
Yes.
Elaine Thomson: Lab
Are you also saying that increased retraining and awareness of the impact of RAB will be required among non-financial senior management teams of public secto...
Mike Hathorn:
I believe so. That is the fundamental issue. Once the mechanics are sorted out, awareness of RAB will become important as politicians, policy makers and mana...
Elaine Thomson: Lab
You have said that there is a need for implementation of several new IT systems in relation to finance. Successful implementation of IT is sometimes problema...
Mike Hathorn:
It is difficult to be totally helpful because that is a complex issue. The prerequisites depend on a clear assessment of the needs. The starting point for an...
The Convener: Lab
You have made the fairly fundamental point that many managers continue to think that RAB has no benefits, although it has existed in the public sector for so...
Mike Hathorn:
This is perhaps a simplistic statement, but I would argue that that attitude exists at two levels. At a lower level—the detailed level of new systems—there i...
The Convener: Lab
That was clearly the import of Dr Shaoul's paper, which we will come to in due course.
Mike Hathorn:
My committee has debated the issues and we understand the arguments. However, it can be difficult for managers who are asked to implement such programmes to ...
The Convener: Lab
Andrew Wilson and Adam Ingram want to speak. Is it on this subject?
Mr Adam Ingram (South of Scotland) (SNP): SNP
It is on the policy implications of what Mr Hathorn is talking about.There cannot be any other implication, can there? If there is a set of resources and—eve...
Mike Hathorn:
I quote from the resource accounting manual, which has highlighted five benefits of valuing and putting assets on the balance sheet. They vary from the simpl...
Mr Ingram: SNP
I understand that, but it has put managers in the NHS under a great deal of pressure and has meant that they have taken decisions to reduce staffing or the a...
Mike Hathorn:
We agree. That is why we highlighted our concern that, unless policy makers understand the implications of capital charging and the movement in the value of ...