Chamber
Plenary, 03 Oct 2007
03 Oct 2007 · S3 · Plenary
Item of business
Crerar Review
As the cabinet secretary said in welcoming the report from Professor Crerar, the report is an excellent and informed starting point. That is how I understand the report—as a starting point. Professor Crerar has done some of the heavy lifting, so to speak, in his collation and analysis of the extent and scale of scrutiny and complaints handling in the public sector. However, I want gently to disturb the consensus that is building by saying that I do not think that the report goes far enough in what it proposes. I hope that, in considering Professor Crerar's recommendations, Parliament and ministers will think radically. Although it may not be possible, eventually, to act as radically as we might, we should start by thinking radically about the possible solutions. We should also be prepared not to give in to special pleading from various bodies and organisations.
If anybody wants a countervailing view to the points that are made in the report, they should read the submission from Keir Bloomer, the former chief executive of Clackmannanshire Council. I say that with some bias because for years he and I railed against the increasing weight of public scrutiny on local government. He makes some compelling points. In respect of auditing, councils are different from other bodies because they have their own democratic mandate. I think that, increasingly, that is not being recognised by, for example, Audit Scotland, which is progressively going beyond public performance reporting and is involving itself in policy matters and democratic scrutiny matters, which are not within the remit that it was first given.
As well as being audited by Audit Scotland, every council must pay for external auditors, who are very expensive, and have its own internal audit section. I will give members an idea of the costs of all that. The smallest council in mainland Scotland, Clackmannanshire Council, in 2002-03 spent £171,000 on auditing by Audit Scotland. By 2005-06, that figure had increased by 35 per cent to £231,000. Audit Scotland is always good at telling councils to be more efficient, but it increases its fee annually, which local authorities have no choice but to pay. On top of that, there are fees for external and internal auditors.
On the sheer weight of scrutiny, Keir Bloomer says:
"The regime is widely perceived as punitive and has instilled a fear of taking calculated risks, thus reinforcing the innate conservativism of the public sector."
That is true and apparent to most people who work in local authorities. As I said, Audit Scotland has gone beyond public performance reporting.
An important point is that scrutiny of public bodies should lie with Parliament, so there is a question about the extent to which public performance reporting bodies are encroaching on Parliament's role. That is something for Parliament to think about. Perhaps it would be best if it was not a lawyer that considered that issue. I hate to suggest it, but it may be best if a political scientist or someone like that were to examine the balance between democratic and public performance scrutiny.
I am trying not to use the word "cluttered" about complaints handling, but it is extremely cluttered in the public sector. As Professor Crerar makes clear, it is confusing to the people whom the systems are meant to serve and, as Christine Grahame pointed out, people often feel at the end of the process that it has not served them well. That is partly because when each of the bodies were set up, what they could look at was tightly constrained: for example, the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman—I share the concerns of Tavish Scott and others about it—can only consider maladministration, but the public does not realise that and thinks that the body has a far wider remit, which is why people can become frustrated.
The Scottish Public Services Ombudsman started off fairly well with the good intention of drawing in more areas, such as health, but it has lost its way. I have worked with the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman's office for the past 10 years and it is not operating as people envisaged it would.
As I said, the public sector is under a huge burden. I have a final quotation from Keir Bloomer.
"Public service organisations are overwhelmed by the numerous and disparate exercises they are subject to. There is little evidence of co-ordination or joined-up working between the distinct scrutiny bodies demonstrated by discrete exercises occurring simultaneously or concurrently, including the recent audit of Housing"—
in Clackmannanshire Council—
"which coincided with the Best Value & Community Planning audit and a visit by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Education (HMIE) with the Community Learning audit. A number of these separate exercises also replicate the work of others. For example, reviews of Psychological Services, Child Protection, Children's Services".
Clackmannanshire Council serves about 48,000 people. We are a country of 5 million people—I do not think that a country of our size should have the weight of scrutiny and audit on its public sector that we have. That is why this is the time to be radical. We could make real savings, although that should not be the first priority, which must be rationalisation that is understood and proportionate—another word that comes up time and again in the Crerar report.
Although some members have argued against it, we should have a single agency in mind when the issue is being considered and we should only consider as exceptions agencies that can prove that there is a good reason why they should not be part of the single agency. The savings in backroom staffing and other costs could be huge, and the agency could be much more understandable to the public that it is meant to serve.
If anybody wants a countervailing view to the points that are made in the report, they should read the submission from Keir Bloomer, the former chief executive of Clackmannanshire Council. I say that with some bias because for years he and I railed against the increasing weight of public scrutiny on local government. He makes some compelling points. In respect of auditing, councils are different from other bodies because they have their own democratic mandate. I think that, increasingly, that is not being recognised by, for example, Audit Scotland, which is progressively going beyond public performance reporting and is involving itself in policy matters and democratic scrutiny matters, which are not within the remit that it was first given.
As well as being audited by Audit Scotland, every council must pay for external auditors, who are very expensive, and have its own internal audit section. I will give members an idea of the costs of all that. The smallest council in mainland Scotland, Clackmannanshire Council, in 2002-03 spent £171,000 on auditing by Audit Scotland. By 2005-06, that figure had increased by 35 per cent to £231,000. Audit Scotland is always good at telling councils to be more efficient, but it increases its fee annually, which local authorities have no choice but to pay. On top of that, there are fees for external and internal auditors.
On the sheer weight of scrutiny, Keir Bloomer says:
"The regime is widely perceived as punitive and has instilled a fear of taking calculated risks, thus reinforcing the innate conservativism of the public sector."
That is true and apparent to most people who work in local authorities. As I said, Audit Scotland has gone beyond public performance reporting.
An important point is that scrutiny of public bodies should lie with Parliament, so there is a question about the extent to which public performance reporting bodies are encroaching on Parliament's role. That is something for Parliament to think about. Perhaps it would be best if it was not a lawyer that considered that issue. I hate to suggest it, but it may be best if a political scientist or someone like that were to examine the balance between democratic and public performance scrutiny.
I am trying not to use the word "cluttered" about complaints handling, but it is extremely cluttered in the public sector. As Professor Crerar makes clear, it is confusing to the people whom the systems are meant to serve and, as Christine Grahame pointed out, people often feel at the end of the process that it has not served them well. That is partly because when each of the bodies were set up, what they could look at was tightly constrained: for example, the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman—I share the concerns of Tavish Scott and others about it—can only consider maladministration, but the public does not realise that and thinks that the body has a far wider remit, which is why people can become frustrated.
The Scottish Public Services Ombudsman started off fairly well with the good intention of drawing in more areas, such as health, but it has lost its way. I have worked with the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman's office for the past 10 years and it is not operating as people envisaged it would.
As I said, the public sector is under a huge burden. I have a final quotation from Keir Bloomer.
"Public service organisations are overwhelmed by the numerous and disparate exercises they are subject to. There is little evidence of co-ordination or joined-up working between the distinct scrutiny bodies demonstrated by discrete exercises occurring simultaneously or concurrently, including the recent audit of Housing"—
in Clackmannanshire Council—
"which coincided with the Best Value & Community Planning audit and a visit by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Education (HMIE) with the Community Learning audit. A number of these separate exercises also replicate the work of others. For example, reviews of Psychological Services, Child Protection, Children's Services".
Clackmannanshire Council serves about 48,000 people. We are a country of 5 million people—I do not think that a country of our size should have the weight of scrutiny and audit on its public sector that we have. That is why this is the time to be radical. We could make real savings, although that should not be the first priority, which must be rationalisation that is understood and proportionate—another word that comes up time and again in the Crerar report.
Although some members have argued against it, we should have a single agency in mind when the issue is being considered and we should only consider as exceptions agencies that can prove that there is a good reason why they should not be part of the single agency. The savings in backroom staffing and other costs could be huge, and the agency could be much more understandable to the public that it is meant to serve.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Alex Fergusson):
NPA
The next item of business is a debate on motion S3M-589, in the name of John Swinney, on the Crerar review.
The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth (John Swinney):
SNP
Last week, Professor Lorne Crerar published "The Crerar Review: The report of the independent review of regulation, audit, inspection and complaints handling...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
Many complaints processes, judging from my experience of them, are very bureaucratic. Does the cabinet secretary accept that one of the objects of this exerc...
John Swinney:
SNP
Mr Brown makes a fair point. In my experience, certainly from a constituency perspective, people can be worn down by the bureaucracy that is involved in purs...
Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab):
Lab
I, too, want to place on the record our thanks to Lorne Crerar and the team for the much valued piece of work that they have produced. We all recognise that ...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
Members should be aware that we have a minute or two in hand, otherwise I might have been slightly stricter in the time that I have allowed to members. I cal...
Derek Brownlee (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Thank you, Presiding Officer. I will try to stick to six minutes.I suspect that this will be one of those debates that will achieve very little press coverag...
George Foulkes (Lothians) (Lab):
Lab
Mr Brownlee has made a very important point. We should not allow it to flit away without dwelling on it. This is a topic that affects all our constituents, a...
Members:
No—there's one.
George Foulkes:
Lab
Sorry. He is always there—one dedicated soul. I look forward to reading about the debate tomorrow.The topic affects all our constituents, yet some trivia tha...
Derek Brownlee:
Con
I would not dare condemn the media. Clearly, they are all watching on television.I thought that George Foulkes was going to suggest that what was worthy of a...
John Swinney:
SNP
More thoughtful.
Derek Brownlee:
Con
The cabinet secretary says, "More thoughtful." Whether or not Professor Crerar is being simplistic in his approach, his recommendation perhaps gives the Gove...
Tavish Scott (Shetland) (LD):
LD
"The Crerar Review" is a weighty but welcome tome. I looked up the author's curriculum vitae on the internet and discovered that he is not only an eminent pr...
John Swinney:
SNP
I readily accept the scenario that Tavish Scott paints. It is a fair assessment of where many of us have been at different stages, although—who knows?—perhap...
Tavish Scott:
LD
I accept the minister's analysis of what should happen. However—like Mr Kerr, I will give some thoughts as a former minister—I counter that, even when a serv...
Ian McKee (Lothians) (SNP):
SNP
I join the minister and others in welcoming this landmark review by Professor Crerar and his colleagues. In recent years, the regulatory and supervisory land...
Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab):
Lab
The Crerar review seems to have engendered a significant outbreak of consensus, not only in the chamber, but among outside commentators. Unison stated that"t...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Elaine Murray might like to know that Lord Foulkes has also left the chamber.
Elaine Murray:
Lab
Unfortunately, I do not have eyes in the back of my head, so I was unable to see that.When there are pressures on politicians, we tend to react by acting, wh...
John Swinney:
SNP
The sense of my remarks to Parliament today is that some issues, such as the ones that Elaine Murray raises, are the property of Parliament rather than of Go...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish Godman):
Lab
Dr Murray should draw her speech to a close.
Elaine Murray:
Lab
I am running out of time, so I suppose that I should not have taken the intervention, but it is an important matter that both the Finance Committee and the G...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I do not want to hear anybody else talking about "decluttering the landscape". I am sorry, Mr McKee, but if we are to declutter any landscape it will be my b...
Ken Macintosh (Eastwood) (Lab):
Lab
What an offer from Christine Grahame.I begin, as nearly all members have, by welcoming the publication of the Crerar report and the work of Professor Crerar ...
Keith Brown (Ochil) (SNP):
SNP
As the cabinet secretary said in welcoming the report from Professor Crerar, the report is an excellent and informed starting point. That is how I understand...
Jackson Carlaw (West of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I express my regrets at having missed the cabinet secretary's opening speech and part of Andy Kerr's speech. Enjoying the Conservative party conference in Bl...
Andy Kerr:
Lab
I could mention the cones hotline as an example of that, but that would be too unkind. I agree that we need to ensure that the scrutiny environment is as min...
Jackson Carlaw:
Con
No, I am not saying that. I did not seek to apportion blame to any political party or to a particular previous Administration; I said that Governments have t...
Stuart McMillan (West of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
This important debate will ultimately, I am sure, lead to an improved complaints service being offered to everyone in Scotland.The report contains some sensi...