Committee
Criminal Justice Committee 10 November 2021 [Draft]
10 Nov 2021 · S6 · Criminal Justice Committee
Item of business
Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23
Thank you, convener. As ever, I am grateful to the committee for the chance to contribute to its pre-budget scrutiny work. I know that the committee has met a number of our justice partners over the past few weeks, and I welcome the opportunity to continue discussions on the budget. Members of the committee will have heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s recent budget announcements. Although some of the announcements are welcome, overall, that budget does not deliver for the people of Scotland. The headline announcement was a significant increase in the Scottish block grant but, in reality, the Scottish Government faces a cut in its day-to-day funding for each year of the spending review period compared with the position in 2021-22. Scotland’s capital grant allocation shows no change between 2022-23 and 2023-24 and a reduction between 2023-24 and 2024-25. That comes in addition to the challenges of Covid, which have patently not gone away, and the on-going impact of the United Kingdom Government’s decision to leave the European Union. Both issues have had significant impacts on our justice sector. I echo the views that have been expressed by members of the committee and previous witnesses in commending the impressive work that has been done by those who work in the justice system, particularly over the past 18 months, in responding to those challenges. Despite those pressures, I remain ambitious for our justice system. In September, the Government published our programme for government, which sets out how we aim to transform the justice system in a number of areas over the next five years. I will highlight a number of key areas for the justice portfolio. As I said, Covid-19 has not gone away; it continues to affect our daily lives. I continue to be impressed by justice agencies’ commitment to working together to mitigate the consequences of Covid and to find creative solutions to the challenges while, at the same time, delivering longer-term reforms. Innovations such as the use of remote jury centres in cinemas, the remote balloting of jurors and some court hearings being done online demonstrate the innovative approach that has been taken by our justice partners. We have committed to providing £50 million this year to drive forward the recover, renew and transform programme. Although we see optimistic signs of recovery, with court activity returning to pre-Covid levels, I do not underestimate the distress that is caused to the victims of crime by unavoidable delays in cases being resolved. The continued recovery of the system remains a key priority for the justice portfolio. We must ensure that we do not simply try to recover to the place that we were before the pandemic started. Even before Covid, despite the overall downward trend in crime, we were experiencing growing numbers of cases in our solemn courts and increasing complex needs among the population in our criminal justice system. The pandemic has given us the opportunity to think about how we can do things better, which can mean doing things differently to drive improvements for the future. That is not just about technology improving efficiency; it is about ensuring that there is a culture that places the needs of people at the heart of the system in a way that reduces trauma. We are working on a new overarching justice strategy that will take forward that approach. We will continue to focus on the needs of victims through a range of actions, including the establishment of a new victims commissioner, a review of the victim notification scheme, consideration of recommendations from Lady Dorrian’s report on improving the handling of sexual offence cases and consideration of other areas of the justice system. On policing and public safety, we have committed to protecting the police resource budget in real terms for the entirety of this parliamentary session, as we did throughout the previous session. That provides a stable position from which Police Scotland can plan to improve service delivery and enhance the safety and security of people and communities across Scotland. As a progressive and humane society, we will be working to continue to shift the balance between ineffective short-term periods in prison and robust community alternatives. That will be underpinned by on-going investment in the expansion of community justice services that support diversion from prosecution, alternatives to remand, and community sentencing, which evidence shows are much more effective at reducing reoffending. Next spring, we will develop and launch a new national community justice strategy that sets out clear aims with an emphasis on early intervention, and encourages a further shift away from the use of custody. Where imprisonment is the only safe recourse, we will continue to modernise Scotland’s prison estate, and have committed to invest more than £500 million over this parliamentary session. I have already alluded to the challenging outlook for public sector finances and the difficult decisions that my cabinet colleagues and I will face before the final budget decisions are taken. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy has confirmed that she will publish the 2022-23 Scottish budget on 9 December, alongside a framework for a multiyear resource spending review. I am happy to answer your questions on the budget for the justice portfolio.
In the same item of business
The Convener
SNP
The next agenda item is consideration of the spending priorities in the justice sector for 2022-23. I refer members to papers 1 and 2. I am pleased to welcom...
The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veterans (Keith Brown)
SNP
Thank you, convener. As ever, I am grateful to the committee for the chance to contribute to its pre-budget scrutiny work. I know that the committee has met ...
The Convener
SNP
Thank you, cabinet secretary. We will move straight to questions. I ask that members keep their questions as succinct as possible, given that we have a fair ...
Russell Findlay (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
Good morning. For the sake of the record, I will pick up on what was said about the UK Government’s decision to leave the EU. The decision was in fact the re...
Keith Brown
SNP
I do not like to start off on a point of disagreement, but the decision to leave the EU was not a decision of the people; it was a decision of the Government...
Neil Rennick (Scottish Government)
As the cabinet secretary says, the Crown Office budget is negotiated separately from the main justice budget. It is directly negotiated between the Lord Advo...
Russell Findlay
Con
Are those sums for the Crown Office?
Neil Rennick
They are for the justice system as a whole. They came through the main justice budget, although we provided some additional funding from that budget last yea...
Russell Findlay
Con
Is the Crown Office satisfied with the fairly modest rise in the capital budget? Have you had any feedback from it? Is it content?
Keith Brown
SNP
As Neil Rennick said and I have tried to say, the Crown Office will discuss that separately with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy. It is a s...
The Convener
SNP
We will move on to questions on policing and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. I will ask about the funding provision for the 26th United Nations climate...
Keith Brown
SNP
Mr Findlay’s question in the chamber yesterday provided me with an opportunity to say that the policing of COP26 has been superb. I know that we have to look...
Donald McGillivray (Scottish Government)
We are in a good position overall. Police Scotland, various other bodies, the Scottish Government and the UK Government have gone through a fairly formal pro...
The Convener
SNP
That was helpful. I will bring in Katy Clark, who has some follow-up questions on COP26.
Katy Clark (West Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
As you have said, the financial position is not yet clear, but, once the conference is over, is the cabinet secretary willing to give a statement in the cham...
Keith Brown
SNP
I would love to be in the position of directing what the chamber does, but that is a matter for it to decide. For my part, I am more than willing to discuss ...
Katy Clark
Lab
In relation to contracts that Police Scotland enters into, another area of controversy has been the contract with Sri Lanka, which I think is due for renewal...
Keith Brown
SNP
I have very little involvement in that. The police have the autonomy that they asked for and that the Parliament granted them. Collectively, as a Parliament,...
Katy Clark
Lab
I would like to follow up on that, because there are serious human rights implications. There are many countries in the world that Police Scotland could ente...
Keith Brown
SNP
There is a strong argument to be made for that, but there is also the argument that we would want to try to improve situations in which human rights abuses h...
Donald McGillivray
I simply point out that a human rights assessment is part of the Foreign Office’s approval process for funding the deployment of police overseas through the ...
Katy Clark
Lab
On another issue, what discussions has the cabinet secretary had with Police Scotland and the Scottish Police Authority about the use and financial cost impl...
Keith Brown
SNP
That is a good question. As I am sure the member knows, the ability to enter into that kind of agreement is recognised by ACAS—the Advisory, Conciliation and...
Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
SNP
I have a brief supplementary question on COP26 funding. You have made it clear that there is a good process in place for recouping the direct costs of COP26,...
Keith Brown
SNP
Again, I will bring in Don McGillivray on that, but I will first give another example. For some time in advance of COP26, all leave was cancelled for the pol...
Donald McGillivray
The process is a formal one that looks at business cases. The costs involved have to be those for which the organisation can make a tangible estimate—that is...
Fulton MacGregor
SNP
I have been reassured. 10:30
Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con)
Con
I will start by asking you to clarify something that you said in your opening statement about the overall budget, because it puts the justice budget into con...
Keith Brown
SNP
I am not the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy, but the difference, which is apparent from our different interpretations, is that the figure that...
Jamie Greene
Con
That is an important point, because the uplift in Covid consequentials to the Scottish budget was around £15 billion. It strikes me as unreasonable to expect...