Committee
Local Government Committee, 07 Jan 2003
07 Jan 2003 · S1 · Local Government Committee
Item of business
Prostitution Tolerance Zones (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I agree with Richard Simpson—I do not think that prostitutes should be sent to prison at all. If I were a female and had to go on the streets as a prostitute, I would be terrified. Being a prostitute is more dangerous than being an astronaut or a coal miner. I am beginning to suspect that Jan Macleod and Anne-Marie Manning attended a meeting similar to one that I attended some years ago in Glasgow City Council. An Australian lady spoke to us about the situation in Melbourne and the flotation on the stock exchange. Although I do not know whether she said that local prostitution was drying up in the state of Victoria, she mentioned that the Russian mafia, which is now the most powerful mafia in the world, was flying in women and even children and that south-east Asia had joined in. That was resulting in quite an influx.I have already said that prostitution is described—rightly or wrongly—as the oldest profession in the world. How do we overcome the problems, given that Victoria is being swamped with prostitutes and that, as Jan Macleod mentioned, there is considerable movement in Europe and other parts of the world? Is there a solution? Prostitution has been going on for thousands of years, so there is no quick-fix solution. If the witnesses were dictators in this country, what laws would they introduce and what action would they take to try to halt prostitution? Is it possible to do that?
In the same item of business
The Convener:
Lab
I welcome Ruth Morgan Thomas, who is the manager of SCOT-PEP—the Scottish prostitutes education project. I also welcome George Lewis, who is co-chair of SCOT...
Ruth Morgan Thomas (SCOT-PEP):
Thank you for the invitation to give evidence on behalf of SCOT-PEP and the women working in Edinburgh on the streets of Leith.There are diverse feminist per...
Senga MacDonald (Drugs Action):
I thank the committee for inviting me to give evidence. I support much of what Ruth Morgan Thomas said and will not repeat the points that she made. However,...
The Convener:
Lab
Before I invite questions, I will say a couple of things. Any witnesses who wish to answer should signal that to me. I again welcome Margo MacDonald to the c...
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
As I said in my presentation, the loss of the zone affected the women's self-esteem by creating a sense of abandonment. They felt that society had turned its...
The Convener:
Lab
I want to ask about an issue of administrative detail. In the absence of a tolerance zone, how do you get in touch with prostitutes?
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
When the zone was abandoned, women dispersed. We used to engage in street outreach on foot within the zone and around its periphery. Many women who were comi...
The Convener:
Lab
Kerb-crawling is not an offence, but soliciting is. If we changed the law on that, what difference would that make?
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
England has had kerb-crawling legislation long enough for us to look at what has happened there.
The Convener:
Lab
But what if kerb-crawling was not an offence and we got rid of the offence of soliciting?
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
And had neither?
The Convener:
Lab
Yes. It seems to me that the bias is towards one gender.
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
Absolutely. I would support the position of neither activity being an offence because I think that existing legislation creates barriers in relation to civil...
Senga MacDonald:
My concern about shifting the balance towards kerb-crawling—I assume that that is what you are speaking about, is it not?
The Convener:
Lab
No. I know the evidence against doing that. We have an offence of soliciting in this country, but not an offence of kerb-crawling. We could make the situatio...
Senga MacDonald:
I think that that would be helpful, but soliciting would still have to be managed and I think that the bill proposes to manage it by consultation.
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab):
Lab
I found today's evidence fascinating because it was effectively about controlled trials. There was a tolerance zone in Edinburgh, but there is no longer one....
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
I will respond on the Edinburgh question. The street women in Edinburgh and I were somewhat bewildered at the loss of the tolerance area. We felt strongly th...
Dr Simpson:
Lab
I think that that helps. We will obviously ask others what would be the outcome of passing the bill, which is not a compulsory bill, but a permissive bill th...
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
I think that the advantage of the bill is that it will provide a legislative and legal framework. According to my reading of the bill, mere objections to pro...
The Convener:
Lab
As long as the zone is not on their doorstep.
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
Absolutely.
George Lewis (SCOT-PEP):
I would like to add one comment to what Ruth Morgan Thomas said about the legal framework. One of our continuing frustrations over the years has been the fac...
Senga MacDonald:
The situation in Aberdeen was that, for some time before the zone was defined, the problem was managed, and it was positive in many ways. However, there was ...
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
On the question of why the bill should be enabling legislation rather than compulsory, I think that it is important that each area be allowed to determine it...
Dr Simpson:
Lab
I was impressed by the figures that you gave us in your paper and orally relating to the change in the pattern of violence. That is an interesting change and...
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
A zone not only makes possible the management of the sex workers within it, but allows them to work collectively and to manage themselves. One of the greates...
Dr Simpson:
Lab
That is interesting in the light of the Aberdeen experience, where creation of a zone has led to tensions. You also said that those who seek to enter prostit...
Ruth Morgan Thomas:
The issue is also one of size. In the four or five years before the women in Edinburgh were moved from Coburg Street to Salamander Street, the size of the de...
Senga MacDonald:
Historically, there is a fairly natural area in Aberdeen for women who become involved in prostitution to go, but the zone is too small. My concern is that i...