Chamber
Plenary, 12 Dec 2001
12 Dec 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
National Health Service
I remember Tony Blair telling the likes of me that we could not have the Labour Government of our dreams—presumably because, in the real world, dreams cannot come true. The picture that has emerged more and more clearly during the debate is that not only can we not have the NHS of our dreams, we cannot even have the NHS that previous generations took for granted.
Nye Bevan famously resigned from a Cabinet position because of the introduction of minimal prescription charges. Goodness knows what he would think of the situation today in which public NHS hospitals, such as the new Edinburgh royal infirmary, Hairmyres hospital and the new hospital in Wishaw, are privately financed and run by the private sector for profit. On the other hand, private hospitals, such as the HCI hospital in Clydebank, are largely publicly financed but are still run by the private sector for profit. That is a case of heads, the private sector wins; tails, the public sector loses.
What would Nye Bevan make of the fact that those privately financed public hospitals routinely reduce the number of beds that are available in local health board areas, thereby lengthening waiting lists and creating capacity problems for the NHS? They also make it possible for the publicly funded private hospitals to take advantage of that undercapacity in the NHS by accepting overspill patients from a health services that lacks beds. What would Nye Bevan make of our inability to find the resources to fund consultants to work inside the NHS, despite the fact that we can find resources to fund the same consultants to work for profit in the private sector? He would ask us where we had gone wrong and what we had done to the NHS that we inherited from previous generations.
I am told that those points are ideological and do not matter. What does it matter whether patients are treated in the public sector or in the private sector, so long as they get treatment? If that is the case, why do not we take the spare capacity in the private sector into public ownership? In HCI's case, we have already paid for the service. I am quite happy to go along with the minister if he does not want to use the word "renationalisation" but is prepared to talk about taking over space, so long as that space is reintegrated into the NHS and we spend taxpayers' money exclusively on the treatment of patients, rather than on boosting the profits of the private sector in Scotland.
At the end of the day, ideology matters. People know that big United States health care multinationals are putting huge pressure on the continuing World Trade Organisation negotiations on the general agreement on trade and services, in order to open up health services around the world to private competition. The increasing commercialisation inside our NHS makes it easy for those multinationals to pressure a WTO disputes panel into saying that there is no reason that they, too, should not be allowed inside our NHS.
The national health service that we inherited from previous generations has been sacrificed on the altar of low taxes. It is time that the country and the Parliament woke up to that danger.
Nye Bevan famously resigned from a Cabinet position because of the introduction of minimal prescription charges. Goodness knows what he would think of the situation today in which public NHS hospitals, such as the new Edinburgh royal infirmary, Hairmyres hospital and the new hospital in Wishaw, are privately financed and run by the private sector for profit. On the other hand, private hospitals, such as the HCI hospital in Clydebank, are largely publicly financed but are still run by the private sector for profit. That is a case of heads, the private sector wins; tails, the public sector loses.
What would Nye Bevan make of the fact that those privately financed public hospitals routinely reduce the number of beds that are available in local health board areas, thereby lengthening waiting lists and creating capacity problems for the NHS? They also make it possible for the publicly funded private hospitals to take advantage of that undercapacity in the NHS by accepting overspill patients from a health services that lacks beds. What would Nye Bevan make of our inability to find the resources to fund consultants to work inside the NHS, despite the fact that we can find resources to fund the same consultants to work for profit in the private sector? He would ask us where we had gone wrong and what we had done to the NHS that we inherited from previous generations.
I am told that those points are ideological and do not matter. What does it matter whether patients are treated in the public sector or in the private sector, so long as they get treatment? If that is the case, why do not we take the spare capacity in the private sector into public ownership? In HCI's case, we have already paid for the service. I am quite happy to go along with the minister if he does not want to use the word "renationalisation" but is prepared to talk about taking over space, so long as that space is reintegrated into the NHS and we spend taxpayers' money exclusively on the treatment of patients, rather than on boosting the profits of the private sector in Scotland.
At the end of the day, ideology matters. People know that big United States health care multinationals are putting huge pressure on the continuing World Trade Organisation negotiations on the general agreement on trade and services, in order to open up health services around the world to private competition. The increasing commercialisation inside our NHS makes it easy for those multinationals to pressure a WTO disputes panel into saying that there is no reason that they, too, should not be allowed inside our NHS.
The national health service that we inherited from previous generations has been sacrificed on the altar of low taxes. It is time that the country and the Parliament woke up to that danger.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
Our main debate is on motion S1M-2538, in the name of Malcolm Chisholm, on "Our National Health—Delivering Change", and two amendments to that motion. I invi...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Malcolm Chisholm):
Lab
In two days' time, it will be the first anniversary of the publication of "Our National Health: A plan for action, a plan for change". Of the 236 individual ...
Brian Adam (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister confirm that only an extremely modest number of patients have been transferred from NHS facilities to private ones? Will he tell us how man...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I cannot give the member the precise number, but I will certainly tell him in writing if he so wishes.It is clear that much more can be done to ensure a more...
Margaret Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab):
Lab
The minister has talked about the use of private and other health service beds. Is it not about time that we considered nationalising some of the private sec...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
Margaret Jamieson makes an interesting point because, in all of this week's discussion in the newspapers about private beds, the distinction has not been mad...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
Does the minister accept that the principal opposition in Scotland on this issue is that individuals will profit from the illness of Scottish citizens, regar...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I agree that that is a further issue, but I am not sure that it is of prime concern to the patients. There are detailed consequences that we will have to con...
Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister take an intervention?
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I should make a little progress as I have taken a few interventions already. I will give way in about one minute.We are going a step further with the creatio...
Nicola Sturgeon:
SNP
The minister has clearly been thinking about this point deeply over the past few weeks. I daresay that he will have conducted an analysis of how much it cost...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
It is fascinating to watch the somersaults that Nicola Sturgeon is performing. At the weekend, when she thought that I was not advocating the use of spare ca...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
Given that the spare capacity in HCI alone is around 500 beds, will the minister sign a concordat with the private sector to ensure that patients have a guar...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
Mary Scanlon threw that figure at me last week. There is limited spare capacity at HCI, which, in line with what I have said, should certainly be used. Howev...
Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister give a quick explanation of how much out of the figures that he has just given will be taken up with external pressures?
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
Everybody knows that resources such as those for pay and drugs increases each year. I fully accept that. Shona Robison should also acknowledge that such incr...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Will the member give way?
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I had better not. I have three minutes remaining and I have given way six times, which is probably too many, considering how much I have to say.
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The minister has been generous so he can have an extra couple of minutes.
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I give way to Mr Wallace.
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I was not suggesting that the minister should give way again.
Ben Wallace:
Con
Does the minister agree that the best way to create a patient-centred service is to give patients choice and to allow general practitioners to exercise that ...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
Patients have had the choice of where to be treated since the health service was founded in 1948. The reality is that most people want to be treated in a hos...
Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member give way?
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I might have one more minute if I am lucky.
Alasdair Morgan:
SNP
Go on.
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
Okay.
Alasdair Morgan:
SNP
Will the minister say what he is doing about the recruitment of dentists? As he knows, there is a severe problem in many parts of the country where retiring ...
Malcolm Chisholm:
Lab
I apologise for mentioning only nurses—very important though they are—and not dentists. I did have more to say on the matter. As I have indicated before, a g...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
Members will have noticed that I allowed the minister an extra four minutes in which to speak. That was partly because two members who had given notice that ...