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Showing 60 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con Chamber
26 Nov 2020
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Presiding Officer, “This work is dedicated to the abomination of all that restricts travel.” That sounds almost contemporary, but so reads the dedication to the book “The Thomas Cook Story”, 1954 edition, by John Pudney. What does that tale of the Thomas Cook travel company ...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Under agenda item 2, the committee will consider the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome to the meeting Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge of the bill and who will speak to and move his amendments. I also welcome the Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills...
The Convener Con Committee
02 Mar 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The next group of amendments is entitled “Scottish Pubs Code Adjudicator and Scottish Ministers’ duty to seek to make code and appoint adjudicator”. Amendment 85, in the name of Richard Lyle, is grouped with amendments 85 to 99, 99A, 100, 103, 101, 102, 104 to 121, 9, 122 to 1...
The Convener Con Committee
01 Sep 2020
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
We now come to agenda item 3, which is the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill. I welcome Neil Bibby MSP, who is the member in charge of the bill; Nick Hawthorne, who is the senior assistant clerk for the non-Government bills unit; and Neil Ross, solicitor. They all join us by live link...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 17 disagreed to. Section 1 agreed to. Schedule 1—The Scottish Pubs Code
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Group 2 is on the Scottish pubs code: information and certain terms of agreement. Amendment 18, in the name of Michelle Ballantyne, is grouped with amendments 19 to 29. I point out that amendment 26, which is further on in the group, pre-empts amendment 27, so if amendment 26 ...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Inaudible.—amendments to the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill. Committee member Andy Wightman has joined us; he has been in another committee meeting until this point. We return to the group of amendments on Scottish pub code: requirement to offer guest beer. I ask Neil Bibby, as th...
The Convener Con Committee
02 Mar 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Welcome back to the meeting. Agenda item 6 is our continued consideration of the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I again welcome Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge of the bill. He is present to speak to and move his amendments. I also welcome back the Minister for ...
The Convener Con Committee
02 Mar 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Amendments 67A, 67B and 67C therefore fall. Amendments 6 to 8 moved—Jamie Hepburn—and agreed to. Amendments 68 to 84 not moved. Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to. Section 2—Scottish Pubs Code Adjudicator
The Convener Con Committee
01 Sep 2020
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thank you, Mr Bibby. We now move to questions from the deputy convener.
The Convener Con Committee
01 Sep 2020
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thank you. Maurice Golden has the next questions.
The Convener Con Committee
01 Sep 2020
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
We move on to questions from Rhoda Grant.
The Convener Con Committee
01 Sep 2020
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The next questions come from Colin Beattie.
The Convener Con Committee
01 Sep 2020
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As there are no further questions from committee members, I ask Neil Bibby to briefly sum up his position before we move into private session.
The Convener Con Committee
01 Sep 2020
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Yes, certainly. Do you have any points to sweep up on, so to speak?
The Convener Con Committee
01 Sep 2020
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I thank Neil Bibby and also Nick Hawthorne and Neil Ross, who appeared with him virtually. 12:10 Meeting continued in private until 12:56.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Amendment 15, in the name of Maurice Golden, is grouped with amendments 16 and 17. I will call Maurice Golden to move amendment 15 and speak to all the amendments in the group. Thereafter, I will call Richard Lyle to speak to amendment 16 and the other amendments in the group ...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Willie Coffey would like to make a point of order.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
My notes suggest that he spoke for seven minutes and not 10. However, the record will show how long it was. The reason for allowing Maurice Golden some leeway is that we are at the opening remarks stage. The same courtesy will be extended to Neil Bibby—if he wishes it—and, per...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Bearing that comment in mind, I turn to another member of the committee. Richard Lyle, you will start at 09:17, according to my clock.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
We need not worry too much about that. It was brief and to the point, as always. I have two points to make. First, I have been advised by the clerks that, technically, in committee, we have points not of order but of clarification, so I correct myself. Secondly, reference was...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Before Neil Bibby winds up on the group, I want to ask the minister about the proposal in subsection (c) in amendment 17 that the Scottish ministers must “have regard to the law of landlord and tenant in Scotland more generally.” One of the criticisms of the bill, rightly or...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Inaudible.—I think that a contrast is drawn out there between Scottish law and English law.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Thank you, minister. We come to Neil Bibby, who is the member in charge of the bill.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I ask Maurice Golden to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 15.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The question is, that amendment 15 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 15 disagreed to.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Does Richard Lyle wish to move amendment 16?
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The question is, that amendment 17 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Thank you. I call Graham Simpson to speak to amendment 19 and the other amendments in the group.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I call Rachael Hamilton to speak to amendment 20 and the other amendments in the group.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I ask Michelle Ballantyne to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 18.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The question is, that amendment 18 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon ...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 18 disagreed to. Amendment 19 moved—Graham Simpson.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The question is, that amendment 19 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon ...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 19 disagreed to.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I call amendment 20, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, which has already been debated with amendment 18. I ask Rachael Hamilton to move or not move—Interruption. There is some noise in the background somewhere. I am not sure whether someone has a radio on or something, but the...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Thank you. If members are attending another committee online, they should ensure that we do not hear it in this committee. The question is, that amendment 20 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon ...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 20 disagreed to. Amendment 21 moved—Maurice Golden.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The question is, that amendment 21 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon ...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 21 disagreed to. Amendment 22 moved—Maurice Golden.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The question is, that amendment 22 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 22 disagreed to. Amendment 23 moved—Graham Simpson.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The question is, that amendment 23 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 23 disagreed to. Amendment 24 moved—Michelle Ballantyne.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The question is, that amendment 24 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 24 disagreed to. Amendment 25 moved—Maurice Golden.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The question is, that amendment 25 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
There will be a division. For Golden, Maurice (West Scotland) (Con) Lindhurst, Gordon (Lothian) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (...
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 5, Abstentions 0. Amendment 25 disagreed to. Amendment 26 moved—Alexander Stewart.
The Convener Con Committee
23 Feb 2021
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
I remind members that if amendment 26 is agreed to, I will not be able to call amendment 27, because of the rule on pre-emption. The question is, that amendment 26 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No.
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid) 26 November 2020

26 Nov 2020 · S5 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Presiding Officer,

“This work is dedicated to the abomination of all that restricts travel.”

That sounds almost contemporary, but so reads the dedication to the book “The Thomas Cook Story”, 1954 edition, by John Pudney. What does that tale of the Thomas Cook travel company have to do with pubs? Quite a lot, actually. Thomas Cook originated as a temperance—non-alcoholic beverage—travel company, in the wake of the Beerhouse Act 1830, which was intended to establish free trade in beer.

Pudney wrote that the results of the act

“were soon apparent. Even the poorest might keep a beerhouse, or let the beer house keep them, the more so when some brewers were willing to pay the two guineas for the licence and supply stock if the house were ‘tied’. Thirty thousand new beer houses were opened at once ... Certainly as the Act intended, more beer was drunk ... Those who had favoured the measure were aghast. Sydney Smith reported: ‘The new Beer Bill has begun its operations. Everybody is drunk. Those who are not singing are sprawling.’”

From that, we see that it is well recognised from history that parliamentary measures that relate to beer, pubs and tied pubs need very careful consideration indeed, for the consequences of such legislation can be far reaching—in ways far beyond those that were imagined by proposers, promoters or opposers alike.

However, before I turn from Pudney’s account, I mention the son of Thomas Cook and his wife, Marianne. They named him John Mason—[Laughter.] I kid you not. Pudney wrote:

“The child was something of a phenomenon ... The progress of the little John Mason must have been watched with especial interest.”

As far as I am aware, he is no relation, but we have of course our own John Mason, both in the Parliament and, often, in our committee, plying witnesses with perceptive questions and thoughts for which we are grateful.

As convener of the committee that considered the bill, but someone who was not a member during that time—and given my appreciation of the benefits of the temperance movement of which Thomas Cook was part—I am personally placed in a somewhat invidious position in this debate. To be clear—a modern favourite political catchphrase—I speak here in my capacity as convener on behalf of the committee, and on this occasion perhaps more so than at other times.

The committee’s consultation on the bill landed at a time of economic and practical difficulty for everyone—no less so for pub owners and tenants. The committee is appreciative of everyone who took the time to engage with us despite these trying Covid times. The committee heard from a range of people in response to its call for views in its online survey, focus groups and oral evidence sessions. It heard from tenants who supported the bill and those who did not. It heard from pub membership bodies, tenant membership bodies, campaigners, consumers, large and small brewers and the unions. The committee is deeply grateful to all those who shared their views.

Presenting a bill to a committee, as Neil Bibby has done, involves a great deal of work. Members who seek to introduce good bills are to be commended for doing so. My predecessor, Michelle Ballantyne, who was convener of the committee when the bill was introduced in February and during the evidence taking on the bill, should also be thanked for her good work on the committee.

Evidence for and against the bill was presented robustly. “Robust” is of course another current political catchphrase, but views were genuinely passionate and polarised, and no doubt diverging views will echo around the chamber today as in committee, where majority and minority views were expressed.

A majority of the committee felt

“frustrated by the polarised arguments and the lack of complete, robust and independent data”

that was presented by either supporters of the bill or those who opposed it. That majority was also unconvinced that there was enough evidence to suggest that there were large-scale issues in the tied pubs sector that would justify legislation. A minority of the committee felt that an “imbalance” between pub tenants and landlords exists and that the bill would help to redress it.

A majority of the committee commended the intention behind the bill, but did not support its general principles. I abstained, and in those circumstances, I will leave it up to others to go into the detail of the bill. Presiding Officer, I apologise to the chamber as I need to leave after my speech, which I think you are aware of.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Christine Grahame) SNP
The next item of business is a debate on motion S5M-23343, in the name of Neil Bibby, on the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill. I invite members who wish to speak in...
Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests. It is a critical time for pubs and all those whose livelihoods depend on the licensed tra...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
I call Gordon Lindhurst to speak as convener on behalf of the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee. 17:16
Gordon Lindhurst (Lothian) (Con) Con
Presiding Officer, “This work is dedicated to the abomination of all that restricts travel.” That sounds almost contemporary, but so reads the dedication t...
The Deputy Presiding Officer SNP
That is breaking news to me, but I believe you. 17:23
The Minister for Business, Fair Work and Skills (Jamie Hepburn) SNP
I begin, sadly, not with the literary flair of the committee convener, but by thanking Neil Bibby for introducing the bill and encouraging and fostering disc...
Maurice Golden (West Scotland) (Con) Con
I accept that the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill has been introduced with good intentions, although the manner in which the member has sought to progress the bill...
Sarah Boyack (Lothian) (Lab) Lab
I thank Neil Bibby, his team and the non-Government bills unit for the huge amount of work that they have done to get us to the stage 1 debate. I also thank ...
Andy Wightman (Lothian) (Green) Green
I, too, commend Neil Bibby for introducing the bill, which the Scottish Greens believe provides for a proportionate and fair intervention in the relationship...
Willie Rennie (North East Fife) (LD) LD
I cannot let this go without comment. I commend Maurice Golden for his contribution. He attempted to demolish the bill before indicating that he will endorse...
The Presiding Officer (Ken Macintosh) NPA
We move to the open debate. 17:49
Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) SNP
I am pleased to have the opportunity to take part in the debate on Neil Bibby’s Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill. I congratulate Mr Bibby and his team, and I thank ...
Daniel Johnson (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Lab
I congratulate Neil Bibby on bringing forward a very well-thought-through bill. I know, obviously, that it takes a great deal of effort to get a bill to this...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I was not aware that Mr Johnson spoke about me in private, but I hope that my approach to the bill encourages him to approach such matters with a more open m...
Daniel Johnson Lab
I will bear that in mind. The minister might want to ask some of his colleagues about the things that I say in private about him. In all seriousness, I thin...
John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) SNP
The issue first came to my attention when I was in the UK Parliament in England. I must say that I was impressed by the work of the Lib Dem MP Greg Mulhollan...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I express my empathy for the bill’s principles. My grandfather will be spinning in his grave at a high rate of knots because he was a member of the Independe...
Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con) Con
We are having this debate against a backdrop of the most severe crisis ever to have faced our hospitality sector. Pubs are on their knees. In many parts of t...
Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) SNP
I am not a member of the committee, but I take issue with the comments of Neil Bibby that Graham Simpson has just referred to. My Glasgow Kelvin constituenc...
Bob Doris (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) SNP
I was sympathetic to the bill, but I waited for the Economy, Energy and Fair Work Committee’s stage 1 report, which is finely balanced. Initially, it appeare...
The Presiding Officer NPA
We move to closing speeches. 18:18
James Kelly (Glasgow) (Lab) Lab
There has been a lot of huffing and puffing in the debate. Some people have been sitting on the fence so long that they are likely to have splinters in sensi...
Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Con
The debate on the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill has been lively—and not just here in the chamber, because it has generated a lot of strong views across the pub s...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will Dean Lockhart acknowledge that landlords providing financial comfort to tenants through the crisis is not the exclusive preserve of this sector, that it...
Dean Lockhart Con
That is a fair point. However, if there is any risk that there would be a decline in landlords investing in pubs in Scotland in the future, that financial su...
Jamie Hepburn SNP
I will respond to as much of the debate as I have time to. However, I start with an apology to Daniel Johnson. I am incredibly sorry that I have not conforme...
Daniel Johnson Lab
Will the minister give way?
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Perhaps this is the beginning of it.
Daniel Johnson Lab
I thank the minister for giving way. I confirm that my opinion of him is quite transformed; unfortunately, my poor sense of humour is not.
Jamie Hepburn SNP
Clearly, neither is mine—I was only joking, Mr Johnson. Andy Wightman welcomed that I was not persuaded by the committee’s recommendations, which is—I suppo...