Chamber
Plenary, 13 Mar 2003
13 Mar 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
International Situation
On September 12 2001, the day after the mass murder in New York and Washington, Le Monde carried a banner headline, the translation of which is, "We are all Americans now." That headline encapsulated our feelings of outrage and grief. In London, in a speech of great clarity and compassion, Tony Blair called for justice and mercy, a campaign to extirpate the terrorists from their lairs and a ruthless war on the global poverty that fuels terrorism. I warmly endorsed that speech. Just for a moment, it seemed that good might come out of evil.
Today, the French, the Germans and other old Europeans are openly vilified in the American media. Afghanistan, which has been almost forgotten, is slipping back into anarchy, and some of the poorest countries of the world—Angola, Cameroon and Guinea—are being openly bullied and bribed in the Security Council.
The Executive amendment is right to stress the primacy of the United Nations, but members should look at today's headlines:
"Blair's gamble as allies prepare to go to war"
without the UN, or
"War looms as Prime Minister prepares to bypass United Nations".
How can that be? It can be only because the war is not about Iraq. It is about a new world order, it is about the cold war being over and it is about the world's only superpower being determined to impose its own order of pre-emptive strike and pax Americana. That is a serious argument.
Even though I oppose it, I concede that there is an argument for Britain to be part of that order. Such a case is based on perceptions of British self-interest and realpolitik. However, such a case can never be argued on the grounds of compassion and international law.
In recent weeks, our television studios have seen a stream of pundits unburdening themselves of the pain and agony that they personally experienced before deciding to march unto war. Let me tell members what pain is by providing just one personal flashback from war. Pain is a little boy with what is left of his leg in an Oor Wullie bucket of antiseptic, taking it out, turning it over, looking at it and then looking at me as though I knew the answer. I had no answer then, as I have no answer now, except to keep my mouth open.
The war has already claimed its first victim, which is the truth. The resolution is not a mandate. A mandate must specifically authorise the use of military force, as happened in the Korean war and in the previous gulf war. A mandate must be rooted in compelling evidence. In war these days, the truth is that it is safer to be a soldier than to be a civilian. Nine out of 10 casualties of war are civilians, most of whom are women and children. The allies look for a surgical strike with not many dead. I have my doubts about that, but even if it were true, the killing goes on long after the war is over.
Last week, the Scottish Trades Union Congress called on all silent MSPs to say where they stand, and many have done so today. Many in the chamber take the old European view, which was articulated by John McAllion, that there is no case for military action against Iraq. The case has not yet been proven. Perhaps later today, we can rally round that one position across the parties—the Liberals, the SNP, the John McAllions, the members of the Labour party and, indeed, perhaps some members of the Tory party.
Today, the French, the Germans and other old Europeans are openly vilified in the American media. Afghanistan, which has been almost forgotten, is slipping back into anarchy, and some of the poorest countries of the world—Angola, Cameroon and Guinea—are being openly bullied and bribed in the Security Council.
The Executive amendment is right to stress the primacy of the United Nations, but members should look at today's headlines:
"Blair's gamble as allies prepare to go to war"
without the UN, or
"War looms as Prime Minister prepares to bypass United Nations".
How can that be? It can be only because the war is not about Iraq. It is about a new world order, it is about the cold war being over and it is about the world's only superpower being determined to impose its own order of pre-emptive strike and pax Americana. That is a serious argument.
Even though I oppose it, I concede that there is an argument for Britain to be part of that order. Such a case is based on perceptions of British self-interest and realpolitik. However, such a case can never be argued on the grounds of compassion and international law.
In recent weeks, our television studios have seen a stream of pundits unburdening themselves of the pain and agony that they personally experienced before deciding to march unto war. Let me tell members what pain is by providing just one personal flashback from war. Pain is a little boy with what is left of his leg in an Oor Wullie bucket of antiseptic, taking it out, turning it over, looking at it and then looking at me as though I knew the answer. I had no answer then, as I have no answer now, except to keep my mouth open.
The war has already claimed its first victim, which is the truth. The resolution is not a mandate. A mandate must specifically authorise the use of military force, as happened in the Korean war and in the previous gulf war. A mandate must be rooted in compelling evidence. In war these days, the truth is that it is safer to be a soldier than to be a civilian. Nine out of 10 casualties of war are civilians, most of whom are women and children. The allies look for a surgical strike with not many dead. I have my doubts about that, but even if it were true, the killing goes on long after the war is over.
Last week, the Scottish Trades Union Congress called on all silent MSPs to say where they stand, and many have done so today. Many in the chamber take the old European view, which was articulated by John McAllion, that there is no case for military action against Iraq. The case has not yet been proven. Perhaps later today, we can rally round that one position across the parties—the Liberals, the SNP, the John McAllions, the members of the Labour party and, indeed, perhaps some members of the Tory party.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
Good morning. Our first item of business is a debate on motion S1M-4012, in the name of John Swinney, on the current international situation.I must tell the ...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
Two months ago, the Scottish National Party led a debate in this, our national Parliament. That day we set out our "deep and serious concern" that the United...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
Does Mr Swinney accept that there are serious people on both sides of the argument and that people in Scotland do not speak with a unanimous voice on the iss...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I could not agree more with Johann Lamont. That is why we are having a three-hour debate in my party's parliamentary time, which will give those of every sha...
Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab):
Lab
On the basis of Mr Swinney's argument today, does he maintain that the SNP was right to oppose the ending of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo in 1999?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
In the interests of having a quality public debate about a war that the people of this country will face in the ensuing few days, we should concentrate on th...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I am obliged to Mr Swinney for giving way. He rightly puts much emphasis on international law. However, does he accept that for every statement on internatio...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
If Murdo Fraser will bear with me, I will address that point directly.The United Nations Security Council resolution 1441, which was adopted on 8 November, i...
Members:
Hear, hear.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I am glad to hear that the Liberal Democrats agree with that point. Nowhere in resolution 1441 is there a specific authorisation of force. The resolution cal...
The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):
Lab
Will Mr Swinney acknowledge that Mr Robert Black has been seriously wrong in the past on issues of concern to this country, including the Lockerbie disaster,...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
His running down of distinguished Scottish academics is not exactly a tribute to the First Minister's stance.
The First Minister:
Lab
It was wrong to run down Scots law when that law worked in the international interest and in the court in the Netherlands. Mr Black was wrong then and could ...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
If that is what the First Minister is reduced to, it says everything about what he has to contribute to the debate.Professor Black has further argued that th...
Johann Lamont:
Lab
Does the member therefore agree that the concept of an unreasonable veto exists and does he accept that those of us who are concerned about the Palestinian p...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I ask Johann Lamont merely to go and explain that to the Palestinian people, whose aspirations have been thwarted by the vetoes that I mentioned.Mr Blair sho...
Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):
LD
Does Mr Swinney agree that the inspections are achieving containment and that Iraq is currently no threat to us or to its neighbours?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
That is a fair point.
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Does the member believe that Iraq would have made the recent concessions if there had not been the pressure of having troops on its borders?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
The concessions have been brought about by the pressure of the international community to ensure that Iraq complies with resolutions that have been passed by...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I thank Mr Swinney for taking less than the allotted time, despite taking interventions.
Mr Jack McConnell (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab):
Lab
In October 1977, I went on my first demonstration. We were protesting against apartheid and demanding the end of an evil regime. Britain was on the right sid...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
I am glad that the minister protested against apartheid in 1977. Whose side is he on now, however? Is he on the side of Nelson Mandela, who is against this w...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
I am on the side of the people of Iraq. I remind Mr Sheridan that, for decades—well over a century—socialists have supported those who are being persecuted a...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I hear what the First Minister says about the UK Government's attitude to a second resolution in the UN. Will the First Minister support military action if t...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
I have three things to say in answer to that question. First, it would be wrong, in this country and elsewhere, to comment on hypothetical situations when th...
Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Nonsense.
Mr McConnell:
Lab
That day, Andrew Wilson said that Alex Salmond was right to describe that action as "unpardonable folly". However, he was not right; he was wrong. That examp...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
The First Minister said that he would not comment on hypothetical situations, but then went on to comment on actions that the French Government might take. T...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
I will address that point. The amendment that I will move makes the point that action should be authorised by the United Nations.Difficult decisions must be ...