Chamber
Plenary, 18 Apr 2002
18 Apr 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Prison Estates Review
The debate goes much further than simply the prison estate. It is fundamentally about the type of society we want to build in Scotland. Do we want Scotland to be Americanised? Do we want privatisation and profit? Do we want to follow the lead of a country where, at the latest meet-and-greet meeting of correctional companies in Washington, prisoners were referred to as "the product" and where the flyer put out before the meeting said:
"Business is booming … Get in Now"?
I do not want to live in that sort of society.
To answer Mr Rumbles's point, we should consider European alternatives. I will address that briefly. I speak in the debate because I come from the part of Scotland with the largest concentration of prison officers anywhere in the country—it has Polmont, Cornton Vale, Glenochil and Perth. I grew up in Tullibody, where Glenochil is based. I have been going there for years, and I find in Glenochil a highly professional, highly qualified staff. I do not find that at Kilmarnock. The review is not about value for money; it is about saving money. Therefore, we need an alternative strategy in the broad European pattern.
I cannot understand why we in Scotland are banging up 120 people per 100,000, when the figure is 62 people per 100,000 in Denmark, 52 people per 100,000 in Finland and 90 people per 100,000 in the Netherlands. Is the Government really saying that to walk the streets of Edinburgh or Glasgow is safer than to walk those of Oslo or Copenhagen? I cannot believe that. We must, to take Pauline McNeill's point, consider the European model of criminal justice policy. That is where the debate should happen.
Denmark is building state prisons. Right-wing Governments in Holland have retained custodial sentences in the power of the state. The same is true of a right-wing regime in France, which, when building 35 new prisons, said that it is
"inconceivable that the state should surrender control over custodial management and policy".
I return to what Jack Straw said: private prisons are morally unacceptable to me. I return to the alternative. We are told, "That is the way it is," but we should be here to think about the way it should be. I do not want the Americanisation of our society. The estates review does nothing more than prove a commercial case. If more privatisation is the answer, the minister must have asked a very odd question.
"Business is booming … Get in Now"?
I do not want to live in that sort of society.
To answer Mr Rumbles's point, we should consider European alternatives. I will address that briefly. I speak in the debate because I come from the part of Scotland with the largest concentration of prison officers anywhere in the country—it has Polmont, Cornton Vale, Glenochil and Perth. I grew up in Tullibody, where Glenochil is based. I have been going there for years, and I find in Glenochil a highly professional, highly qualified staff. I do not find that at Kilmarnock. The review is not about value for money; it is about saving money. Therefore, we need an alternative strategy in the broad European pattern.
I cannot understand why we in Scotland are banging up 120 people per 100,000, when the figure is 62 people per 100,000 in Denmark, 52 people per 100,000 in Finland and 90 people per 100,000 in the Netherlands. Is the Government really saying that to walk the streets of Edinburgh or Glasgow is safer than to walk those of Oslo or Copenhagen? I cannot believe that. We must, to take Pauline McNeill's point, consider the European model of criminal justice policy. That is where the debate should happen.
Denmark is building state prisons. Right-wing Governments in Holland have retained custodial sentences in the power of the state. The same is true of a right-wing regime in France, which, when building 35 new prisons, said that it is
"inconceivable that the state should surrender control over custodial management and policy".
I return to what Jack Straw said: private prisons are morally unacceptable to me. I return to the alternative. We are told, "That is the way it is," but we should be here to think about the way it should be. I do not want the Americanisation of our society. The estates review does nothing more than prove a commercial case. If more privatisation is the answer, the minister must have asked a very odd question.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
We move to our first item of business, which is the debate on motion S1M-2993, in the name of Jim Wallace, on the prison estates review, and on two amendment...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
Four weeks ago, I announced to the Parliament the publication of the Scottish Executive's proposals for the future of the Scottish prison estate. The Executi...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
The minister will recall a recent court decision, which suggested that slopping out was against the European convention on human rights. How important is tha...
Mr Wallace:
LD
It is important to clarify that the court did not rule that there was a contravention of the European convention on human rights, but that a prima facie case...
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister explain why the prison population in Sweden, which has a population of 9 million, is less than the prison population of Scotland, which has...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I welcome a debate on this issue, because I am very disappointed that the prison population in Scotland is so high and am concerned that the figure is set to...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
Does the minister accept that the financial case made by PricewaterhouseCoopers depends largely on the size of the prison population?
Mr Wallace:
LD
No. The case is actually based on the costs of providing prisons within a range of different options. It is then up to us to determine the number of prisons ...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
I hope that the minister has noted the report by Mr Carter that was published eight weeks ago by the prison service in England and Wales and on which Pricewa...
Mr Wallace:
LD
PricewaterhouseCoopers, in its report to the Scottish Executive for the prison estates review, makes it very clear that it did not factor into its considerat...
Alex Neil:
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Mr Wallace:
LD
No. I have been generous in taking interventions; I want to make some progress.We owed it to the people of Scotland to think long and hard before publishing ...
Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):
Lab
I am sorry that my intervention is a bit delayed. The minister mentioned that one of the reasons for the difference in costs is the pension scheme; I think t...
Mr Wallace:
LD
Many in the public sector such as policemen, fire officers and those who work in the national health service would find that contrast unfair if they have to ...
Alex Neil:
SNP
Will the minister give way?
Mr Wallace:
LD
No. I have been generous in giving way. I am sure that Mr Neil will get some time of his own to make his speech.The proposal on which we are consulting is th...
Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
My question concerns state responsibility. I hear what the minister says, but when assets and their running go into the private sector it is almost impossibl...
Mr Wallace:
LD
Ministers' statutory responsibilities in respect of prisoners apply to prisoners in Kilmarnock prison as much as they do to prisoners in the public prison es...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
Compared with his figures!
Mr Wallace:
LD
Miss Cunningham is laughing, but she may recall that on a number of occasions I have written to her and said in this chamber that nothing was ruled in and no...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
Nonsense.
Mr Wallace:
LD
Phil Taylor and Christine Cooper are entitled to hold that opinion, but I am astonished and disappointed that two academics appear to have fundamentally conf...
Alex Neil:
SNP
Will the minister accept an intervention?
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The minister is in the final minute of his speech.
Mr Wallace:
LD
I am in the final minute of my speech and I have not even mentioned Peterhead yet.There is always room for improvement in any prison. Kilmarnock is still rel...
Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Will the minister give way?
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
No. The minister is in the last minute of his speech.
Mr Wallace:
LD
In acknowledging the good work that is done at Peterhead, it must be recognised that the most important elements in that work are the quality of the prisoner...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The minister was generous in giving way to other members and we are running slightly over time. I ask those who want to take part in the debate to press thei...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
I have to say that the Minister for Justice is really struggling this morning. He is basically admitting that he has sold the pass on any possible reduction ...