Meeting of the Parliament 21 May 2015
In time-honoured fashion, I rise—as others have done—to say that this has been an interesting debate. I express gratitude on behalf of the committee for the tone of the debate, in which complex issues discussed by the committee have been raised. Considered statements have been made and there have been valuable contributions from across the chamber. The consensus that began with the sainted Bruce Crawford, our convener, has almost become a contagion. It is great to hear that, because sometimes consensus does not lead to interesting debates in the chamber. Today, however, it has, and it highlights a great number of common objectives. Maybe we should focus on those and make progress on them in future.
The Devolution (Further Powers) Committee has considered in detail the Smith commission’s recommendations, which have not yet been fully implemented into draft legislation. As members have heard once or twice this afternoon, the committee’s report was agreed to unanimously by all members of the committee. It is a stronger report because of that. It shows that the committee system is stronger than some people believe. It is a good example of what can be achieved. Indeed, it is the first parliamentary report on this issue that I am aware of that all the parties on the Smith commission have signed up to. I echo the convener’s views and pay tribute to all members of the committee for their efforts in achieving that outcome.
We have heard today that there were some difficult areas. The committee took a particular interest in many of those areas and reflected that in its discussion. As a consequence of the committee’s considered approach, in which it has focused on the facts, let the facts speak for themselves and focused on the job in hand, we have received wide acclaim throughout Scotland for the report. Bruce Crawford mentioned that earlier. For that reason, the Scottish and UK Governments need to pay careful attention to the report and ensure that any future Scotland bill addresses the issues that we have raised.
Our report is a considered and constructive contribution to the process of further devolution. Where that process will or should end was not the aim of the committee’s scrutiny; maybe we were able to get consensus because the issue is on-going.
Annabel Goldie and the Deputy First Minister mentioned the committee’s discussion about further further powers. We have plans to get the new Secretary of State for Scotland and, indeed, the Deputy First Minister, to come before the committee. There will be opportunities to talk about the further further devolution that may or may not be available.
Our focus was on whether the previous UK Government’s draft clauses had fully implemented the Smith commission recommendations. Our conclusion was clear: in substantial areas the draft clauses do not yet achieve that objective. Members have considered in detail the areas that we have identified where redrafting, clarification or proposals must be developed if the further powers that have been agreed to by all parties are to be delivered.
I make it clear that I do not approach the debate in the spirit that the pursuit of new powers for this Parliament is, as Jackie Baillie and Alison Johnstone alluded to, an end in itself. However, I recognise that the Smith recommendations have been agreed by all the parties represented in the chamber, and that the new UK Government must deliver on both the spirit and the substance of the recommendations. The draft clauses do not do that.
I am looking at Iain Gray, because I am about to cite John P Mackintosh, who is someone he has cited previously, too. The citation is relevant because, although we are not now in the position that we want, that does not mean that we cannot achieve that position as a Parliament. In a speech on the Scotland and Wales Bill before the House of Commons in 1976, John P Mackintosh said:
“Institutions have to be the servants of political demands.
We have people in Scotland who want a degree of government for themselves at the Scottish level. It is not beyond the wit of man to devise the institutions to meet those demands and thus strengthen the unity of the United Kingdom.”—[Official Report, House of Commons, 16 December 1976; Vol 922, c 1130.]
I want to highlight briefly, in closing this debate on behalf of the Devolution (Further Powers) Committee, the headline areas where the draft clauses fall short.
On welfare, as we have heard, the clauses do not deliver Smith. Furthermore, there will be significant challenges in implementing the proposed powers.
On income tax, significant implementation issues remain to be resolved, such as how a Scottish taxpayer will be defined, how to avoid double taxation, and the timing and phasing of the new powers arriving under the Scotland Act 2012.
On the fiscal framework, the detail of the framework should be available for scrutiny by this Parliament before the issue of legislative consent for any new bill is considered.
On the Crown Estate, the committee has serious concerns about the potential for competition and confusion that may arise from the creation of two Crown Estates. No one wants to rule out the chance for inward investment to Scotland, as Lewis Macdonald alluded to, but the committee was clear that there must be scope for shared investments between the two Crown Estates, with a fair share of revenues accruing to Scotland.
On the permanence of the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish electorate should be asked to vote in a referendum if permanence comes into question, with majorities also being required in the Scottish and UK Parliaments.
As Bruce Crawford highlighted in opening the debate, the issue of intergovernmental relations has permeated every aspect of the committee’s scrutiny of the proposals for further devolution. There is no question but that the shift from a devolved settlement based on a system of largely separate powers to one of shared powers cannot be borne by the non-statutory, ad hoc nature of intergovernmental relations at work in the UK. Tavish Scott and Linda Fabiani took an interest in those issues, and Elaine Murray pointed out some of the complexities.
In particular, the committee is clear in saying that the need for revised intergovernmental structures will be critical in the areas of taxation, welfare, employment support and European Union representation. The structures that emerge will be required to deal with the uneven distribution of powers across the constituent parts of the UK. The committee is also clear in stating that the general principles underpinning the operation of intergovernmental relations should be put in statute. The role of the Parliament in scrutinising the operation of intergovernmental relations in the new landscape of devolution will be a key challenge to which this institution must respond.
The Devolution (Further Powers) Committee intends to consider that issue in the coming months, and I know that it is an area that the Presiding Officer is looking into, along with the Speaker of the House of Commons. We will play a full part in helping the Presiding Officer to ensure that committees in both Parliaments hold their Governments to account. That will involve learning from the practice of parliamentary scrutiny in other jurisdictions and developing a set of principles that could structure parliamentary scrutiny in this area.
We have set a high bar in the common approach that the committee has adopted, and I think that I speak on behalf of the committee when I say that we will continue to meet that high standard in the future. We will seek to get reports that achieve the level of agreement that we have achieved with the report that has been debated this afternoon. That will be our challenge in the coming months, and it will not be an easy one to meet.