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Showing 60 of 2,354,908 contributions. Latest 30 days: 0. Coverage: 12 May 1999 — 25 Mar 2026.
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Lab Chamber
11 Feb 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I begin by thanking the many stakeholders who submitted evidence on the bill, particularly the parents who generously shared with the committee their difficult experiences of losing a baby or a pregnancy. The evidence greatly assisted us with our deliberations and our understa...
The Convener (Duncan McNeil) Lab Committee
08 Mar 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2
Good morning and welcome to the 13th meeting in 2016 of the Health and Sport Committee. I ask everyone in the room to switch off their mobile phones as they can interfere with the sound system and with the proceedings, although some colleagues are using tablet devices instead ...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Our second item is our third evidence session on the Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill. I regret that I have to announce apologies from Dr Gillian Smith of the Royal College of Midwives, who is unavoidably unable to be with us. As I said last week, bills by their nature ha...
The Convener (Duncan McNeil) Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Good morning and welcome to the Health and Sport Committee’s first meeting in 2016. I ask everyone in the room to switch off mobile phones, as they can interfere with the sound system. You will notice that some of us are using tablet devices instead of hard copies of our paper...
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The bill says that records must be kept of every burial and cremation, which might lead to, say, women who had lost their babies before 24 weeks being identified. Do you have any concerns about such information being available not just to certain people, but to the public in g...
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
There are a couple of wee things that we would like to ask, for clarity. I am looking at page 6 of the committee’s briefing. We have looked at records with regard to funeral directors and cremation authorities. The bill explains that health authorities must keep a record of wh...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
We can perhaps raise that with the minister. We will move on to some of the issues that arise after the loss has happened and engagement has begun to take place. We then get into bureaucracy and form filling, to use negative terms. There are questions about time, and religiou...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
We may need some clarification on that. The bill creates an offence of providing false or misleading information. Should it also specify whose role it is to explain the options on the forms for cremation and burial?
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
We also might have midwives who wish to help someone through the form but who would be uncomfortable about recommending or talking about a cremation or a burial. Given your response, do we not need clarity in and around who should be involved in filling in the form? You clearl...
Duncan McNeil Lab Chamber
11 Feb 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
That is not something that we looked at particularly, but the member has made a good point. The minister is here and she might wish to consider that further. The committee also welcomes the provisions in the bill that set out who may make arrangements for burial and cremation...
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thanks, Willie. Does Ann McMurray wish to add anything to that?
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thank you. We will move on to questions that will, I am sure, pick up some of the points that have been made.
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Is the issue not more about communication?
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
We are talking about dramatic situations. Of course, some people will be able to cope but, on reflection, do you not think that this is about asking the right questions and communicating better? Do you think that there was a wilful element in the neglect over the form? After a...
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Does Ann McMurray have any views on that? No? It is hard to imagine that things would get to that stage, but it has to be taken into account.
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Should the funeral directors’ role be set out clearly in the bill?
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Under the bill, the records will be available to the public, but the point is to ensure that the women in question are not identified.
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The information should not be separate; it should just be part of somebody’s medical record.
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
That would prevent our having an overall check and monitoring of the system. I am looking around me. Medical records are private and are not shared generally, so we would not be able to ensure that the public could be aware that the practice that the bill hopes to establish co...
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I am looking to you, as you have experience. If we tried to examine some of those records, would they be there? The bill says that they should be in the future, so we presume that they are not regularly established now. We can explore that.
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Okay.
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
There are no right answers to those questions, but that is as good an answer as we will get. Perhaps we will ask those questions. The bill says what should happen with record keeping if a woman loses her baby in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. The catch-all in the bill is th...
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
It is not a question that we can answer, because it might not apply to our given situation. However, the bill says that even once the decision is recorded there must be a waiting period—I think that Ann mentioned that that was very important—and that would be the rule. We can ...
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
A waiting time might not matter. If there are no other questions, I thank Willie and Ann very much for their time. We are sorry that Cheryl Buchanan has not been able to come, but we obviously have her written evidence, which we will take into account when we complete our ini...
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
You have just put that on the record—it is a good, final word. However, Willie is determined that he will have the final word. Laughter.
The Convener Lab Committee
05 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thanks very much to you both for your contribution. I suspend the meeting at this point while we set up for our next evidence session. 10:38 Meeting suspended. 10:44 On resuming—
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thank you all for that. I say to each of the witnesses that we will cover a wide range of topics. Some of them will be applicable to you and you will feel that you can answer them. There is no pressure to respond to every subject if it is not in your area of interest, although...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Will you give us an example to help us understand the difficulties around that?
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
This evidence session gives us an opportunity to ask about the different terms that are being used. For example, we have heard today about a campaign highlighting the extent of miscarriages in the United Kingdom, which I believe amount to 250,000. We have had references to “mi...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I know, but you said earlier that you provided services right across the board.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
With regard to the 12 to 24-week period, do we know how many women will find themselves in the situation that we are talking about? What are the national figures? How many families will find themselves affected by the legislation? We can always ask the minister that when she c...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
We will come on to some of those issues.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Before we get on to that issue, which is about arrangements after the loss has happened, I want us to cover one other issue. Although we understand that the vast majority of such situations will happen in a hospital in the NHS, the issue of prison and residential settings has ...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Does Jim Brodie want to supplement that in any way?
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
That is fine. Does anyone else want to comment?
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Excuse me, but I want to give Tim Morris the floor. I will bring you in after that.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I would like to cover areas that have not yet been covered. They are, I suppose, some of the more sensitive areas. We understand that the vast majority of child deaths will be given burials; that was what you said earlier.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
There is a presumption now that ashes will be recovered in every case.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
In what circumstances could there be no recovery of ashes?
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
That is happening now and there is every expectation that when ashes are requested they will be available, and there is nothing to prevent that happening other that what Willie Reid described.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Did I read in the briefing for this meeting—the written evidence—that other methods are now being developed?
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The bill specifies that ashes should exclude metal. Should the bill specify what should happen in those circumstances? Tim—you are on a run. I will take others if they feel a need.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Are there any other comments? Does anybody wish to add anything to Tim’s response?
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I think that we have covered all the points that we wanted to cover. I am looking at Bob Doris and some other members. If Bob has a wee point to make and is looking for some clarity, we will do that first and then ask the panel whether there are any areas that we have not cove...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Do panel members want to say anything about areas that we have not covered?
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
It is useful that you have put that on the record. You will know that more than one committee is looking at the bill. Obviously, we have a different focus from the Local Government and Regeneration Committee, which has focused on some of those issues.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
That is useful.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thank you for that. No one else wants to speak, so I thank you all for your time, for the evidence that has been provided this morning and for the written evidence that we have received. I hope that we can reflect it all in our final report. 10:50 Meeting suspended. 10:56 O...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
We continue our evidence-taking session. I welcome to the committee Maureen Watt, Minister for Public Health, Dr Simon Cuthbert-Kerr, bill team leader, and Graham McGlashan, principal legal officer, all from the Scottish Government. I invite the minister to make opening remark...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Thank you, minister. 11:00
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
NHS Lothian, which is doing a lot of good work in the area, raised the point that the proposed duty does not give it that flexibility. It feels that what is in the bill is a duty that it must act on at the six-weeks point. Another issue that has been raised in evidence is the...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
So that point will be addressed in the forms, but the bill will say that there is a requirement.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The earlier stage places a duty on everybody to wait until seven days after the decision has been made and to reflect on whether that decision is what they really want. It is not a very apt description, but it is almost a cooling-off period and it would impact on those whose r...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
That is helpful. We heard this morning that a woman who suffers a pregnancy loss might be in a hospital environment for 24 or 48 hours. We know that there is one midwife in the whole of Scotland who has some training in the issues. The minister placed some responsibility for ...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Some of the other members might want to refer to it but we have had engagement with women parents who have suffered such a loss. They described their experiences of busy maternity wards. Perhaps Nanette Milne can describe some of that for us.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
How many women will benefit from the legislation? I suppose that I am asking how many people currently find themselves in such a situation, from pre-24 weeks right through to suffering pregnancy loss in the broadest terms.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
I ask the question because the legislation will place a lot of requirements on a lot of different organisations in relation to record keeping, counselling and so on. We are creating demand, and there will be an expectation that people will be communicated with effectively and ...
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
You will have the opportunity to come back in. Rhoda Grant is next.
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Do you want to follow up on that, Bob?
The Convener Lab Committee
12 Jan 2016
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
Speaking of this ever-longer form, should the bill specify how crematoria should dispose of unclaimed ashes?
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Chamber

Meeting of the Parliament 11 February 2016

11 Feb 2016 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
McNeil, Duncan Lab Greenock and Inverclyde Watch on SPTV

I begin by thanking the many stakeholders who submitted evidence on the bill, particularly the parents who generously shared with the committee their difficult experiences of losing a baby or a pregnancy. The evidence greatly assisted us with our deliberations and our understanding of the issues—that is reflected in our stage 1 report.

The loss of a baby is one of the most heartbreaking things that can happen to a parent. The excitement and anticipation of family renewal and a new birth turn to shock, grief and trauma. Add to that the experience for a parent of not knowing what happened to their baby’s ashes and there is a long-lasting and devastating impact on those affected. The bereaved parents who shared their views with the committee sent a clear message: the bill must ensure that the poor practice of the past never happens again.

The bill’s policy memorandum states that its purpose

“is to provide a modern, comprehensive legislative framework for burial and cremation.”

The evidence that we received welcomed the bill’s intention and the committee supports its aims.

A key purpose of the bill is to give effect to a number of recommendations that were made by the burial and cremation review group and the infant cremation commission. We therefore examined how the bill addresses circumstances involving pregnancy loss and the loss of a baby. We made a number of recommendations to the Scottish Government in our stage 1 report about strengthening the relevant provisions in the bill. I welcome the minister’s confirmation that she will introduce stage 2 amendments to address many of our concerns. Time does not allow me to address all the recommendations, so I will instead focus on a couple of the key issues. As my speech will use the terminology of the bill, I apologise in advance if my use of that terminology causes anyone distress.

A key objective of the bill is to establish a clear and unambiguous understanding of “ashes”. It defines “ashes” as not including metal and defines “cremation” as

“the reduction to ashes of human remains by the burning of the remains and the application to the burnt human remains of grinding or other processes.”

We agree with that definition, which accords with the infant cremation commission’s recommendation. The Stillbirth and Neonatal Death Society UK also considered that the definition matched the understanding that many parents have of ashes.

However, stakeholders from the cremation industry raised concerns about the definition of cremation in the bill. They explained to the committee that the term “cremulating” was preferable to the industry. The committee also heard concerns that certain faith groups and nationalities do not wish burnt human remains to be cremulated. Their evidence made it clear to the committee why the terminology in the definition must be clear and accurate, and I seek clarification from the minister that the guidance for cremation professionals will ensure that, when appropriate, they must explain the process of cremulation to the bereaved so that they can make an informed decision about whether to proceed.

The bill provides for a number of different timescales in which women are invited to consider what arrangements to make after losing a pregnancy. We have called for the statutory timescales for decision making and the disposal of remains that are in the bill to be made more flexible. That is essential to allow women to make their decisions as quickly or as slowly as they wish.

Although we welcome the Scottish Government’s confirmation that it will consider amending the bill at stage 2, I seek clarification from the minister about the range of factors that she considers will enable health authorities to delay the disposal of remains after the end of the six-week period, such as when a woman is waiting for welfare payments or for a social fund funeral payment, or she remains incapacitated.

In the same item of business

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith) Lab
The next item of business is a debate on motion S4M-15608, in the name of Maureen Watt, on the Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill. 15:57
The Minister for Public Health (Maureen Watt) SNP
I thank the Health and Sport Committee, the Local Government and Regeneration Committee and the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee for their detailed ...
Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Lab
I begin by thanking the many stakeholders who submitted evidence on the bill, particularly the parents who generously shared with the committee their difficu...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
It has occurred to me that there is in a tiny proportion of cases the perinatal death of the mother. Has the point been made that such rights might also be e...
Duncan McNeil Lab
That is not something that we looked at particularly, but the member has made a good point. The minister is here and she might wish to consider that further....
Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) SNP
As convener of the Local Government and Regeneration Committee, it is my job to share with members the main points that arose during my committee’s scrutiny ...
Jenny Marra (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
I rise to open for Scottish Labour, which will support the general principles of the bill at decision time. The legislation that has been in place for buria...
The Deputy Presiding Officer Lab
I can allow you a few more seconds.
Jenny Marra Lab
I will continue with my remarks in my closing speech. Thank you. 16:27
Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con) Con
There has been a general welcome for the Scottish Government’s intention in the bill to “create legislation which is fit for twenty-first century Scotland”,...
The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott) Con
We now move to the open debate. Mr Don will speak on behalf of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee. 16:32
Nigel Don (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) SNP
As you say, Presiding Officer, I speak in my capacity as convener of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee. The committee has continuing concerns abo...
Dennis Robertson (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) SNP
I found the meetings of the Health and Sport Committee on the bill difficult because we were talking about something that is quite close to me as an individu...
Lesley Brennan (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lab
Very few of us plan and discuss our intentions for when we pass on or, importantly, how we will pay for the arrangements. My own parents are an exception—the...
Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) SNP
I congratulate Lesley Brennan on what I thought was a thoughtful and informative speech, to which I listened with interest. I enjoy having her sit with me on...
Malcolm Chisholm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lab
The Health and Sport Committee focused in particular on the provisions relating to pregnancy loss, stillbirth and infant loss, and heard a great deal about t...
Willie Coffey (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) SNP
Burials and cremations might not be the most eye-catching subjects that we deal with in the Scottish Parliament, but they are a vital part of everyday life. ...
Nanette Milne Con
We have had a useful discussion of the bill, and there is clearly support across the chamber for its general principles. I will touch on the Local Government...
Jenny Marra Lab
This has been a good debate with a thorough airing of some issues. The bill covers a wide variety of issues for Parliament’s consideration. I will touch init...
Maureen Watt SNP
I am grateful to parliamentary colleagues for their contributions to what has been an extremely useful debate. I welcome members’ recognition of the need to ...
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick) NPA
That concludes the stage 1 debate on the Burial and Cremation (Scotland) Bill.