Chamber
Plenary, 19 Dec 2002
19 Dec 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
As the first member to speak in this debate who is not a member of the Rural Development Committee, I commend the committee for its report. The report was honest in seeking agreement where that was possible and in reflecting some of the difficulties in what is a complex area.
As other members have said, vast parts of the bill have attracted cross-party agreement. There is crucial agreement about the problems surrounding tenancies and the need for diversity of ownership and land use. There is agreement about some of the bill's measures that will apply to new tenancies; those measures will allow the right balance between flexibility and the possibility of long-term investment, which is exactly what we want.
I want to draw attention to a couple of areas on which more work will definitely be required during the bill's future stages. The first area is the rental assessment. The Rural Development Committee's report makes the point that evidence was received that rent levels were driven more by the subsidy-attracting capacity of the land than by its overall profitability or farm income. That is a very interesting point from which to start. If we are now saying that it is in the nature of public subsidies that they potentially push private rents higher, that is an odd way of reflecting the public interest. I do not see who will benefit from such a system. If subsidies are the primary driver of rents, I suggest that more research and work is needed. Perhaps some of the stage 2 amendments and innovative ideas about forums can be acted on.
There is also the question of how to encourage the diversification that we are all keen to see. The Rural Development Committee was clear that substantial barriers to diversification exist. The phrase "non-agricultural use" and the threat of resumption of land on the back of that is something that the committee and the minister will want to tackle. Some sensible diversification is being unnecessarily blocked, which cannot be to the benefit of the rural economy.
How do we allow tenants to diversify? I note that a number of suggestions have been made, one of which is to use a prescribed list of allowable diversification—a mouthful at any time. I suggest that that is far too rigid a procedure. It seeks to dot all the i's and cross all the t's and to give to diversification an exact nature that is probably not appropriate. As I understand the procedure that is outlined in the bill, we will have a system whereby notification of any planned diversification can be given and there will be a right to object and appeal to the Scottish Land Court. That suggests that all the various players have an opportunity to have their say and to test what is the best way forward. That is a fair balance and the bill is right in that regard.
There were controversial areas about which there was no agreement, particularly with regard to the right to buy. I support firmly the pre-emptive right to buy, which will impose a fair balance once a property is on the market. We should reflect on the fact that in the National Farmers Union of Scotland's survey of opinion—although some members doubted the result—82 per cent of NFUS members supported the pre-emptive right to buy including, importantly, 75 per cent of the landowners they asked. That is a useful statistic to have on public record because it shows that it is possible to build consensus on the issue. As Rhoda Grant suggested, in many cases all the bill will do is give a statutory basis to good practice, which is to be encouraged.
With regard to the absolute right to buy, the committee has acknowledged that however sympathetic many members might be to that right, the case for it is probably not proven. Substantial issues remain to be resolved about the reduction in confidence in letting land. There are questions about the ECHR and about public interest and there are questions about investment in land. That is not to say that the Rural Development Committee might not come to a consensus at a later stage in the bill's progress and resolve to support the absolute right to buy. As matters stand, we can support the principles at stage 1, but it is an absolute requirement at stage 2 that the committee come back to the Parliament with some answers to those very important questions.
As other members have said, vast parts of the bill have attracted cross-party agreement. There is crucial agreement about the problems surrounding tenancies and the need for diversity of ownership and land use. There is agreement about some of the bill's measures that will apply to new tenancies; those measures will allow the right balance between flexibility and the possibility of long-term investment, which is exactly what we want.
I want to draw attention to a couple of areas on which more work will definitely be required during the bill's future stages. The first area is the rental assessment. The Rural Development Committee's report makes the point that evidence was received that rent levels were driven more by the subsidy-attracting capacity of the land than by its overall profitability or farm income. That is a very interesting point from which to start. If we are now saying that it is in the nature of public subsidies that they potentially push private rents higher, that is an odd way of reflecting the public interest. I do not see who will benefit from such a system. If subsidies are the primary driver of rents, I suggest that more research and work is needed. Perhaps some of the stage 2 amendments and innovative ideas about forums can be acted on.
There is also the question of how to encourage the diversification that we are all keen to see. The Rural Development Committee was clear that substantial barriers to diversification exist. The phrase "non-agricultural use" and the threat of resumption of land on the back of that is something that the committee and the minister will want to tackle. Some sensible diversification is being unnecessarily blocked, which cannot be to the benefit of the rural economy.
How do we allow tenants to diversify? I note that a number of suggestions have been made, one of which is to use a prescribed list of allowable diversification—a mouthful at any time. I suggest that that is far too rigid a procedure. It seeks to dot all the i's and cross all the t's and to give to diversification an exact nature that is probably not appropriate. As I understand the procedure that is outlined in the bill, we will have a system whereby notification of any planned diversification can be given and there will be a right to object and appeal to the Scottish Land Court. That suggests that all the various players have an opportunity to have their say and to test what is the best way forward. That is a fair balance and the bill is right in that regard.
There were controversial areas about which there was no agreement, particularly with regard to the right to buy. I support firmly the pre-emptive right to buy, which will impose a fair balance once a property is on the market. We should reflect on the fact that in the National Farmers Union of Scotland's survey of opinion—although some members doubted the result—82 per cent of NFUS members supported the pre-emptive right to buy including, importantly, 75 per cent of the landowners they asked. That is a useful statistic to have on public record because it shows that it is possible to build consensus on the issue. As Rhoda Grant suggested, in many cases all the bill will do is give a statutory basis to good practice, which is to be encouraged.
With regard to the absolute right to buy, the committee has acknowledged that however sympathetic many members might be to that right, the case for it is probably not proven. Substantial issues remain to be resolved about the reduction in confidence in letting land. There are questions about the ECHR and about public interest and there are questions about investment in land. That is not to say that the Rural Development Committee might not come to a consensus at a later stage in the bill's progress and resolve to support the absolute right to buy. As matters stand, we can support the principles at stage 1, but it is an absolute requirement at stage 2 that the committee come back to the Parliament with some answers to those very important questions.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-3396, in the name of Ross Finnie, on the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Bill, and on one amendment to t...
The Deputy Minister for Environment and Rural Development (Allan Wilson):
Lab
I am pleased to open the debate. I have a sore throat, but will continue my Satchmo impersonation.This is the first opportunity for the Parliament to discuss...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Is it not the case that any landowner who objected could put in a written objection under section 35(9)(iii)? That was the committee's point. The description...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Yes. The bill now includes provisions that allow the landlord to grant consent subject to conditions. We intend to make it clear in the bill that the Land Co...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
I fully accept that the issues are complex, but does the minister agree that the mischief to be corrected relates to past agreements? Will he advise whether ...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
I understand Mr Ewing's point but, to a certain extent, he answered it himself when he referred to complex legal issues. I suspect that those are, indeed, th...
John Scott (Ayr) (Con):
Con
Does the minister accept that the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Bill is likely to lead to a reduction in the value of land in Scotland? As that value curr...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
No. I will come to the issue of blight when I come to the absolute right to buy, which is supported by some but not by others. I have been struck by the enth...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
Will the minister give way?
Allan Wilson:
Lab
I would like to, but I am out of time.I have much more to say, but I will say it in my closing speech. The bill is fundamentally about much more than the ten...
Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
While sympathising with the minister's hoarse voice, I must congratulate him on what I assume was an excellent rendition at the karaoke at last night's Labou...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
As Alex Fergusson opposes the pre-emptive right to buy, does he also oppose the rights of pre-emption that feudal superiors hold and have held for centuries?
Alex Fergusson:
Con
That is a matter of legal contract. As a lawyer, Fergus Ewing should certainly know that.The sentiments that Ross Finnie expressed in May 2000 were right the...
Allan Wilson:
Lab
Does Alex Fergusson accept that the introduction of the pre-emptive right to buy is beneficial if landlord and tenant are willing to participate, because the...
Alex Fergusson:
Con
I fully support such sales where there is a willing buyer and a willing seller, but why on earth do we need legislation for that? As I said, available land i...
Fergus Ewing:
SNP
Oh, come on.
Alex Fergusson:
Con
It is true. Such an absolute right to buy is a right to expropriation—a right that will ensure that even the new tenancies that the bill envisages never even...
Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP):
SNP
I start by thanking the clerks, in particular Mark Brough, for the excellent work that they did in helping the Rural Development Committee produce its stage ...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
The Liberal Democrats recognise that there is broad support across all sectors of the agriculture industry for the proposals that are contained in the bill.I...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
I thank the member for giving way. He is clearly an enthusiast of the bill, which I very much welcome. Will he explain why he voted against the committee's r...
Mr Rumbles:
LD
Stewart Stevenson has raised the issue, so I will explain. Fergus Ewing said that 95 per cent of the report had general agreement—indeed it did. On 26 Novemb...
Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab):
Lab
Perhaps you could tell me how long I have, Presiding Officer.
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
You will have to keep quite tightly to four minutes.
Rhoda Grant:
Lab
Thank you.I am pleased that the vast majority of the bill is not controversial and that many organisations are signing up to the new form of tenancies that w...
Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Will the member accept an intervention?
Rhoda Grant:
Lab
I honestly do not have time, because I have a lot to say.Some landowners, many of whom are now rushing into dialogue with tenant farmers, have used every tri...
Mr Duncan Hamilton (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):
SNP
As the first member to speak in this debate who is not a member of the Rural Development Committee, I commend the committee for its report. The report was ho...
Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
Every form of flexibility must be used to keep the Scottish agricultural sector competitive. For that reason alone, I am pleased that the bill seeks to addre...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Con
Yes—thank you very much.
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):
Lab
Like Duncan Hamilton, I am pleased to speak in this debate although I am not a member of the Rural Development Committee. However, I have constituents who ha...