Chamber
Plenary, 28 May 2002
28 May 2002 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Alternatives to Custody
On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I am happy to support and endorse the Executive's motion. I have personal confidence in the excellent intentions of Jim Wallace, Richard Simpson and their Executive colleagues. However, although they are definitely travelling in the right direction, I am concerned that they are travelling only a few yards instead of miles in that direction. I urge the ministers to have the confidence of their own and our convictions. If they move further in that direction, they will not be stabbed in the back.
The problem is to reduce crime and to protect the public. In order to do that, we need an adequate number of modern jails with proper sanitation and rehabilitation facilities, cradle-to-grave facilities in the community and a means of encouraging people to have a better life to ensure that they do not fall into crime. We also need proper and strong—not wet and feeble—alternatives to custody to keep people out of jail.
To do that, we must invest in rolling out—to use that awful cliché—those successful local pilot schemes of which we can all give examples. Although such schemes help a dozen people here or 20 youngsters there, we need lots of them. For example, in every debate on the subject, we all say how marvellous Freagarrach is. It has been going for years, is highly successful and is cheaper than jail; however, it has never been copied or rolled out.
We need the sort of schemes that work well in individual areas to be implemented across the whole country. The evidence shows that those good alternative-to-custody schemes work better than jail and are cheaper than jail. I honestly cannot see why the hell—if I may be pardoned the expression—we do not pursue such schemes with more vigour than we do, especially as I know that both the ministers believe in them. Let us go for it.
Of all the figures that are available, there is one that I would like to quote. Seventy-six per cent of people on SACRO schemes did not reoffend within a year and 78 per cent of young people sentenced to jail did reoffend within a year. It is quite clear that sentences of six months or fewer are a complete waste of time and we should not have them.
So what do we need? First, we need a ministerial group to make proposals for reducing the prison population and to make alternatives to custody really work. We should put on ice the prison estates review until that ministerial group reports.
Secondly, we should have a national non-prison service to co-ordinate all services to keep people out of jail and to support people when they come out of jail. We need that national non-prison service to display as much determination in a better cause as the Scottish Prison Service displays in its pursuit of private jails.
Thirdly, we need real funding across the whole of Scotland for such admirable schemes as restorative justice, which involves the community, the parents, the victim and the offender. Everyone gets involved in the right sort of way. We need mediation, reparation, community service orders and adequate supervision by social workers. As Robert Brown said, social work departments are short of people. To ensure that all that was done, we could use some of the money that would be saved from the health budget, because we would greatly improve people's health by reducing their distress. We would also save some of the jail money that would not be needed for building new blocks. We should also deal with the sentencing issue by getting together with the sheriffs and helping them in other ways.
Do we accept that we in the first modern Scottish Parliament and its Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition Government will preside over the highest ever Scottish prison population, at the top of the European league? I am sure that none of us wants that. It is simply unacceptable. We must act together. Let us have some collective political leadership and determination to reduce crime by using our brains and not by pandering to ill-informed prejudices. We must win public support for this cause. Scots are not worse than other people; they merely suffer under a worse system.
The problem is to reduce crime and to protect the public. In order to do that, we need an adequate number of modern jails with proper sanitation and rehabilitation facilities, cradle-to-grave facilities in the community and a means of encouraging people to have a better life to ensure that they do not fall into crime. We also need proper and strong—not wet and feeble—alternatives to custody to keep people out of jail.
To do that, we must invest in rolling out—to use that awful cliché—those successful local pilot schemes of which we can all give examples. Although such schemes help a dozen people here or 20 youngsters there, we need lots of them. For example, in every debate on the subject, we all say how marvellous Freagarrach is. It has been going for years, is highly successful and is cheaper than jail; however, it has never been copied or rolled out.
We need the sort of schemes that work well in individual areas to be implemented across the whole country. The evidence shows that those good alternative-to-custody schemes work better than jail and are cheaper than jail. I honestly cannot see why the hell—if I may be pardoned the expression—we do not pursue such schemes with more vigour than we do, especially as I know that both the ministers believe in them. Let us go for it.
Of all the figures that are available, there is one that I would like to quote. Seventy-six per cent of people on SACRO schemes did not reoffend within a year and 78 per cent of young people sentenced to jail did reoffend within a year. It is quite clear that sentences of six months or fewer are a complete waste of time and we should not have them.
So what do we need? First, we need a ministerial group to make proposals for reducing the prison population and to make alternatives to custody really work. We should put on ice the prison estates review until that ministerial group reports.
Secondly, we should have a national non-prison service to co-ordinate all services to keep people out of jail and to support people when they come out of jail. We need that national non-prison service to display as much determination in a better cause as the Scottish Prison Service displays in its pursuit of private jails.
Thirdly, we need real funding across the whole of Scotland for such admirable schemes as restorative justice, which involves the community, the parents, the victim and the offender. Everyone gets involved in the right sort of way. We need mediation, reparation, community service orders and adequate supervision by social workers. As Robert Brown said, social work departments are short of people. To ensure that all that was done, we could use some of the money that would be saved from the health budget, because we would greatly improve people's health by reducing their distress. We would also save some of the jail money that would not be needed for building new blocks. We should also deal with the sentencing issue by getting together with the sheriffs and helping them in other ways.
Do we accept that we in the first modern Scottish Parliament and its Labour-Liberal Democrat coalition Government will preside over the highest ever Scottish prison population, at the top of the European league? I am sure that none of us wants that. It is simply unacceptable. We must act together. Let us have some collective political leadership and determination to reduce crime by using our brains and not by pandering to ill-informed prejudices. We must win public support for this cause. Scots are not worse than other people; they merely suffer under a worse system.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
Good afternoon. The first item of business this afternoon is a debate on motion S1M-3149, in the name of Jim Wallace, on alternatives to custody, and two ame...
The Deputy First Minister and Minister for Justice (Mr Jim Wallace):
LD
Alternatives to custody are central to our justice agenda. I believe that, where they are effective in reducing reoffending, they are an essential weapon in ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
Yes, at the moment, it is.
Mr Wallace:
LD
We have a criminal justice system that makes considerable use of short prison sentences, some of only a few days. In western Europe, only Portugal imprisons ...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Does that not happen already? If we check the records of offenders who have been imprisoned, do not we find that they have been before the courts at least fi...
Mr Wallace:
LD
Having spoken to sheriffs, I am aware that there is a small core of offenders who come back to court time and again and who are then sentenced to imprisonmen...
Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):
LD
Let me put to the minister the pertinent words of Clive Fairweather on HMP Cornton Vale: he said that about 50 per cent of the female prison population could...
Mr Wallace:
LD
The contributions that many people, including Clive Fairweather, have made to addressing the imprisonment of female offenders have helped to inform the activ...
Stewart Stevenson (Banff and Buchan) (SNP):
SNP
Is the minister aware that, in this part of the country, the waiting time for entry into drug rehabilitation programmes for people who have not yet entered t...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I understand that there have been 24 drug treatment and testing orders in this part of the world. Mr Stevenson's point was about those who are not in the cri...
Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):
Lab
I want to ask a question that follows on from what Keith Raffan said earlier. The minister has mentioned a range of alternatives to custody. Where does the t...
Mr Wallace:
LD
Time-out provision relates specifically to our attempt to find better non-custodial alternatives for those who might otherwise be sentenced to a period of im...
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
I suspect that there is a great deal of agreement in the chamber this afternoon.There is obviously a custody crisis in Scotland—we know that because we have ...
The Deputy Minister for Justice (Dr Richard Simpson):
Lab
The member was right: I was struggling with her figures. She missed out the number of remand prisoners, although I understand that. Of those who are sentence...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
That still adds up to a great many prisoner days per year being taken up by fine defaulting. We must consider the matter in that context.Payment supervision ...
Mr Raffan:
LD
Does Roseanna Cunningham agree that if we are to roll out DTTOs and drugs courts further and faster—which we all want to do, given the initial results that w...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
We need a vastly expanded infrastructure to deal with the problem at every level, whether it is a health or justice problem that we are addressing.Although w...
Mr Wallace:
LD
I hope that we are on common ground. Does Roseanna Cunningham accept that in examining alternatives to custody, our approach of piloting and evaluating befor...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I appreciate what the minister says, but sometimes the pilots last a long time and we often wait for the roll-out for even longer, if it happens at all. The ...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
You have four minutes left.
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I think that I will manage.The SNP is committed to the provision of creative sentencing alternatives; we are in the process of examining a number of them. Th...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
SNP
I call Lord James Douglas-Hamilton to speak to and move amendment S1M-3149.1. The member has 12 minutes.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Lothians) (Con):
Con
In addressing alternatives to custody, I stress that we have repeatedly made proposals for a complete overhaul of the juvenile justice system. At present, wh...
Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):
LD
Will the member give way?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
I want to elaborate on that point.I mention in particular a case that David McLetchie highlighted in the chamber of a youngster who was turning 15 and who ha...
Mr Rumbles:
LD
Do the Conservatives accept that it was never the Scottish Executive's policy to jail parents for their children's problems, and that it would be wrong to sa...
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
I am grateful for Mr Rumbles's comments. I will be glad if ministers on the front bench make their position absolutely clear, because they speak with the ent...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
Will the member give way?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
Con
Given her principled stand on the issues and the change from the previous position, I will give way to the member.
Johann Lamont:
Lab
I presume that I should take that as a compliment. On the question of parental responsibility and parents ending up in jail, could Lord James Douglas-Hamilto...