Chamber
Plenary, 19 Dec 2001
19 Dec 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Budget Process 2002-03: Stage 2
Alasdair Morgan is absolutely right. We must improve members' awareness of the budget to help them to perform their role more effectively. That can be done by training and by improving the layout of information, for example. We must also find more effective ways of making the budget accessible to members of the general public. Local councils have taken some interesting initiatives in that regard, providing information about budget options and where the money goes. Perhaps the Finance Committee could consider that in relation to increasing our public accessibility and accountability.
It was helpful that the Minister for Finance and Local Government participated in public meetings throughout Scotland and took the opportunity to hear the voices of local communities from outside the central belt. It is important that not only committees are involved in that work but that ministers get out and about to explain what they are up to.
The report contains 14 recommendations and encompasses the recommendations of other committees, which were considered by the Finance Committee. The committee recommends that proposals are drawn up for mechanisms to ensure that spending by non-departmental public bodies, such as health boards, local government and other NDPBs, is in line with Executive priorities and programmes. Although that is easy to say, it is hard to do—we should aspire to that.
The committee heard evidence about the lack of transparency in expenditure on health and local government. There is no doubt that we must examine that, particularly given the fact that health and local government are the two largest areas of expenditure in the budget. Lack of transparency is detrimental to ensuring high levels of accountability to the taxpayers of Scotland. Measures such as those recommended by the committee will enhance the accountability of Scottish agencies to the Scottish Parliament and I hope that they will reassure the public that they are getting value for money.
The committee also recommended that the electronic provision of information should be expedited in order to allow interested parties to drill down from the top level funding figures that are shown in the budget documents to local expenditure on local programmes. During stage 1, the committee heard first-hand evidence that suggested that initiative, which was reinforced by evidence that we heard in Kirkcudbright.
The committee concurred with the premise that it is difficult for individuals to relate weighty budget documentation to their own affairs and local communities. It is up to us to do something about that. The committee believes that we might not assist people if we were to provide further detail in large documents—in fact, it might be detrimental if we were to do so. Accordingly, the committee believes that the electronic provision of such information would aid the retrieval and handling of information and would make it readily accessible throughout Scotland.
The subject committees' reports to the Finance Committee raised numerous matters. The Rural Development Committee noted its desire to be advised of methods by which an estimate might be made of the amount and impact of expenditure on rural areas by Executive departments. If the Finance Committee's recommendation on the electronic provision of information about local expenditure on local programmes were to be implemented, the record level of spending in rural areas by the Executive would become more apparent.
The committee's consideration of the budget highlighted concerns about underspending by departments. The committee identified some of those concerns in its stage 2 report, primarily because the level of underspend is on a par with the total spending plans in the draft budget for social justice, exceeds the spending plans for justice and rural affairs and represents more than four times the spending plans for sport and culture. Therefore, the committee was pleased to receive advice from the Executive that a process of quarterly reports back to ministers has been implemented. I hope that that will reduce the possibility of continuing underspending on such a scale. The measure that the Executive is taking should assist the monitoring of the degree of underspend, with a view to identifying reasons for spending allocated moneys and, if necessary, revising the way in which policy objectives and priorities are delivered.
I have already made the point that presentation of the budget documentation has been a concern of the committee since its inception. I think that all members recognise that significant improvements have been made, albeit that other modifications are required to enhance the usefulness of the documentation. As presentation of the information contained in the documentation develops, the committee will be able to devote more time and resources to scrutiny of the Executive's proposals. As we near the finalisation of the budget process in the Parliament's second budget, the Finance Committee is better placed to use the skills that it has developed through its previous inquiries.
There remains much scope for the committee to take the degree of scrutiny of the Executive's spending proposals to a higher level and, with that, to give the people of Scotland the reassurance that they want that their taxes are being spent effectively and judiciously.
Every member of the Parliament is aware of the findings of the recent Scottish social attitudes survey; it is incumbent on us all to work to reverse the negative perceptions of many Scots of the political process. I believe that the Finance Committee has a considerable role to play in that process and in the whole framework of financial scrutiny.
The initial FIAG report highlighted that there is a lot of virgin territory in which scrutiny and accountability can be developed. Within the scope of its constitution, the Parliament will be able to take that work forward. We are beginning to go down that route, but there is a considerable way to go. Members of the Finance Committee are entrusted with overseeing expenditure plans. We will continue to monitor them, but we will also want to monitor the way in which things are done so that we can secure real improvements.
I will conclude by saying some words about the future work of the Finance Committee. Next year, the committee will seek to judge departmental performance against the priorities that have been set by the Executive. We will consider the extent to which the spending plans reflect what the Executive has said that it will do. However, the committee will be able to measure whether public expenditure achieves its goals and how effectively departments perform only if priorities are clearly identified. The committee has been pleased that the Executive has shown itself to be genuinely enthusiastic to switch the focus of attention from what is spent to what is gained for that expenditure.
We are also pleased that the Minister for Finance and Public Services is promoting a move to priority-based budgeting among his departmental colleagues as a first step towards measuring outputs and outcomes in relation to spending. We hope that the departments will accept that that move is a necessary tool in performance management, not an additional burden. That move will improve the process for everybody. The minister can be commended for his effort and commitment on that subject. We can make good progress.
For our part, we accept that that process will take some time to come to fruition. It will not come in a single step, but as part of an evolving process. We are trying to move forward. We are getting the process right and we are beginning to get it more and more right. As the process develops, I hope that the Finance Committee will play an increasingly important role in the way in which the Parliament operates. I am delighted to commend the motion.
I move,
That the Parliament notes the 13th Report, 2001 of the Finance Committee on Stage 2 of the 2002-03 Budget Process (SP Paper 468) and notes the recommendations made by the Committee.
It was helpful that the Minister for Finance and Local Government participated in public meetings throughout Scotland and took the opportunity to hear the voices of local communities from outside the central belt. It is important that not only committees are involved in that work but that ministers get out and about to explain what they are up to.
The report contains 14 recommendations and encompasses the recommendations of other committees, which were considered by the Finance Committee. The committee recommends that proposals are drawn up for mechanisms to ensure that spending by non-departmental public bodies, such as health boards, local government and other NDPBs, is in line with Executive priorities and programmes. Although that is easy to say, it is hard to do—we should aspire to that.
The committee heard evidence about the lack of transparency in expenditure on health and local government. There is no doubt that we must examine that, particularly given the fact that health and local government are the two largest areas of expenditure in the budget. Lack of transparency is detrimental to ensuring high levels of accountability to the taxpayers of Scotland. Measures such as those recommended by the committee will enhance the accountability of Scottish agencies to the Scottish Parliament and I hope that they will reassure the public that they are getting value for money.
The committee also recommended that the electronic provision of information should be expedited in order to allow interested parties to drill down from the top level funding figures that are shown in the budget documents to local expenditure on local programmes. During stage 1, the committee heard first-hand evidence that suggested that initiative, which was reinforced by evidence that we heard in Kirkcudbright.
The committee concurred with the premise that it is difficult for individuals to relate weighty budget documentation to their own affairs and local communities. It is up to us to do something about that. The committee believes that we might not assist people if we were to provide further detail in large documents—in fact, it might be detrimental if we were to do so. Accordingly, the committee believes that the electronic provision of such information would aid the retrieval and handling of information and would make it readily accessible throughout Scotland.
The subject committees' reports to the Finance Committee raised numerous matters. The Rural Development Committee noted its desire to be advised of methods by which an estimate might be made of the amount and impact of expenditure on rural areas by Executive departments. If the Finance Committee's recommendation on the electronic provision of information about local expenditure on local programmes were to be implemented, the record level of spending in rural areas by the Executive would become more apparent.
The committee's consideration of the budget highlighted concerns about underspending by departments. The committee identified some of those concerns in its stage 2 report, primarily because the level of underspend is on a par with the total spending plans in the draft budget for social justice, exceeds the spending plans for justice and rural affairs and represents more than four times the spending plans for sport and culture. Therefore, the committee was pleased to receive advice from the Executive that a process of quarterly reports back to ministers has been implemented. I hope that that will reduce the possibility of continuing underspending on such a scale. The measure that the Executive is taking should assist the monitoring of the degree of underspend, with a view to identifying reasons for spending allocated moneys and, if necessary, revising the way in which policy objectives and priorities are delivered.
I have already made the point that presentation of the budget documentation has been a concern of the committee since its inception. I think that all members recognise that significant improvements have been made, albeit that other modifications are required to enhance the usefulness of the documentation. As presentation of the information contained in the documentation develops, the committee will be able to devote more time and resources to scrutiny of the Executive's proposals. As we near the finalisation of the budget process in the Parliament's second budget, the Finance Committee is better placed to use the skills that it has developed through its previous inquiries.
There remains much scope for the committee to take the degree of scrutiny of the Executive's spending proposals to a higher level and, with that, to give the people of Scotland the reassurance that they want that their taxes are being spent effectively and judiciously.
Every member of the Parliament is aware of the findings of the recent Scottish social attitudes survey; it is incumbent on us all to work to reverse the negative perceptions of many Scots of the political process. I believe that the Finance Committee has a considerable role to play in that process and in the whole framework of financial scrutiny.
The initial FIAG report highlighted that there is a lot of virgin territory in which scrutiny and accountability can be developed. Within the scope of its constitution, the Parliament will be able to take that work forward. We are beginning to go down that route, but there is a considerable way to go. Members of the Finance Committee are entrusted with overseeing expenditure plans. We will continue to monitor them, but we will also want to monitor the way in which things are done so that we can secure real improvements.
I will conclude by saying some words about the future work of the Finance Committee. Next year, the committee will seek to judge departmental performance against the priorities that have been set by the Executive. We will consider the extent to which the spending plans reflect what the Executive has said that it will do. However, the committee will be able to measure whether public expenditure achieves its goals and how effectively departments perform only if priorities are clearly identified. The committee has been pleased that the Executive has shown itself to be genuinely enthusiastic to switch the focus of attention from what is spent to what is gained for that expenditure.
We are also pleased that the Minister for Finance and Public Services is promoting a move to priority-based budgeting among his departmental colleagues as a first step towards measuring outputs and outcomes in relation to spending. We hope that the departments will accept that that move is a necessary tool in performance management, not an additional burden. That move will improve the process for everybody. The minister can be commended for his effort and commitment on that subject. We can make good progress.
For our part, we accept that that process will take some time to come to fruition. It will not come in a single step, but as part of an evolving process. We are trying to move forward. We are getting the process right and we are beginning to get it more and more right. As the process develops, I hope that the Finance Committee will play an increasingly important role in the way in which the Parliament operates. I am delighted to commend the motion.
I move,
That the Parliament notes the 13th Report, 2001 of the Finance Committee on Stage 2 of the 2002-03 Budget Process (SP Paper 468) and notes the recommendations made by the Committee.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
We now proceed to the Finance Committee debate. Des McNulty, the convener, is introducing the committee's report on stage 2 of the budget process.
Des McNulty (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab):
Lab
I thank the Parliament for this opportunity to open the debate on the Finance Committee's stage 2 report on the 2002-03 budget process. Since the commencemen...
Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP):
SNP
I thought that Des McNulty would appreciate a break in his 20-minute marathon. Does the member agree that one problem with taking evidence around the country...
Des McNulty:
Lab
Alasdair Morgan is absolutely right. We must improve members' awareness of the budget to help them to perform their role more effectively. That can be done b...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
The next speaker is Alasdair Morgan. The time limit on speeches from the back benches will be five minutes.
Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP):
SNP
I am sorry that Des McNulty sat down ahead of his allotted time, as I thought that he was just getting into his stride.I welcome to their new posts the conve...
The Deputy Minister for Finance and Public Services (Peter Peacock):
Lab
Alasdair Morgan has been there.
Alasdair Morgan:
SNP
Indeed, although I did not have anything to defend. Laughter. That comment can be taken in two ways.For Mr McNulty, the post of Finance Committee convener ho...
George Lyon (Argyll and Bute) (LD):
LD
The member says that we are discussing only half a budget. Will it ever be possible for the SNP to make proposals about how it would spend that half before d...
Alasdair Morgan:
SNP
There are two ways to respond to George Lyon's point. I could respond in a party-political knockabout way—the spirit in which the point was made. In that res...
Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
First, in common with other members who have spoken, I have thanks and plaudits to give out. I will start with the clerking team and the adviser to the Finan...
Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
At least they are consistent.
Mr Davidson:
Con
If Mr Wilson says so.We have to ask ourselves, what is the budget process supposed to do? What is it supposed to deliver? The budget process is the Parliamen...
Andrew Wilson:
SNP
Would not the focus on outcomes be enhanced if the Parliament and the Executive had control of not just some expenditure, but all expenditure and of not no t...
Mr Davidson:
Con
I thought the member was giving his speech later. I was hoping that he might entertain us by pursuing the stuck-record approach to what goes on. If the Parli...
Andrew Wilson:
SNP
I am grateful to the member for giving way twice. I concur with his position on the one-size-fits-all policy for Scotland. Why is he so keen to apply a one-s...
Mr Davidson:
Con
I say to Mr Wilson that such comments become a bit tedious. I do not doubt that we will have a full-blown debate on that the next time he initiates a debate....
Alasdair Morgan rose—
SNP
Mr Davidson:
Con
I am nearing the end of my speech. Do I have time to take an intervention?
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Mr George Reid):
SNP
Yes.
Alasdair Morgan:
SNP
I hear the member's comments and to some extent I agree with them, but how do they fit with the comments of his leader, Mr McLetchie, who said when the under...
Mr Davidson:
Con
I think that Mr McLetchie's full comment was that if the Executive could not decide what to do with the underspend, it should give the money back until it ma...
Iain Smith (North-East Fife) (LD):
LD
David Davidson has shown why he thinks that two and a half hours to debate £21 billion of spending is a waste of time. He has wasted the past 13 or 14 minute...
Alasdair Morgan:
SNP
I realise that we will get the answer in the next 10 minutes, but will the member put forward any different ideas or are the Liberal Democrats joined symbiot...
Iain Smith:
LD
Does the member mean that I should look in the dictionary to find out the meaning of "coalition"? When one is in a coalition, one shares priorities and works...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
The member seems confused. He seems to think that we are here to lay out our manifestos for the next election. Des McNulty's motion says: "That the Parliamen...
Iain Smith:
LD
In due course I will make some comments about the report's recommendations. The Finance Committee is charged with looking at the Scottish Parliament's budget...
Mary Scanlon:
Con
Has the member read the report?
Iain Smith:
LD
Yes. I have read the report. We have more money for rural communities. We have improved public services through schemes such as the promotion fund to deal wi...
Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP) rose—
SNP