Chamber
Plenary, 24 Mar 2005
24 Mar 2005 · S2 · Plenary
Item of business
Nuclear Weapons
There are two groups in this Parliament. There is the Lib-Lab-Con party, which is in favour of Trident, and there is everyone else, who represent the 85 per cent of Scots who say that they oppose nuclear weapons on our soil.
In 1996, the International Court of Justice advised that
"the threat or use of nuclear weapons would generally be contrary to the rules of international law".
In other words, it would be contrary to the Geneva convention, the declaration of St Petersburg and the Hague convention. Trident was useless in the Falklands fiasco, in Bosnia and in our attack on Iraq. Indeed, the high cost of Trident has damaged our conventional capabilities. It does not provide security; it simply gives terrorists a target.
Remember the hundreds of thousands of pounds-worth of damage that was caused by three elderly ladies with a pair of bolt cutters a few years ago. How safe would Coulport be against a well-equipped terrorist? Nuclear convoys that supply Trident suffer accidents in most years and are vulnerable to terrorist attack. There were five accidents on the Firth of Clyde alone in the years between 1973 and 1987. That risk is not worth continuing with.
The United Nations has ruled that the use of depleted uranium coated weapons breaches the Geneva convention and the genocide convention. Two thousand tonnes of depleted uranium were dropped on Iraq in the recent attacks; that is 2,000 tonnes of radioactive dust. However, there are not just moral and legal imperatives against using depleted uranium. The MOD has fired more than 6,000 DU rounds into the Solway firth. We are told that that is safe, but this week, phosphorous shells were found washed up on the beaches of the Solway. The shells are almost certainly from the arms dumps in the Solway or Beaufort's Dyke where, we were told by the MOD 50 years ago, they would lie safely for the rest of time. Children play on those beaches, which are some of the best sandy beaches in Scotland. We must stop viewing the sea as a military dump. The weapons that were washed up on the beaches this week are proof positive that the haphazard firing of depleted uranium shells into the sea is not safe.
Article VI of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, which has been mentioned before, imposes on us an obligation to take
"effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament".
We need urgently to give the world a lead. Under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, the non-nuclear powers promise not to obtain nuclear weapons as long as the nuclear powers take steps to disarm. India, Pakistan and Israel have refused to sign because they see no evidence of the nuclear powers disarming. Two years ago, North Korea withdrew from the NPT for the same reason. How can we argue with those countries that they should stay non-nuclear when we are taking no steps to disarm and, indeed, are considering a new generation of weapons? As we have heard, the Government has announced that it is doing that and it will make a decision in the next two or three years.
The treaty is floundering. We need urgent action from the Westminster Government and the Executive to help to ensure that the ratification meeting in May is a success. Trident has not persuaded one single country to reduce its nuclear arsenal. Scotland should take the lead in this—we must do it for economic reasons and we should do it for our safety and for moral reasons. Most of all, we should take a lead for the sake of the entire world.
I move amendment S2M-2640.3, to insert after "£20 billion"
"; notes that communities and the environment across Scotland are endangered by nuclear convoys, by the dismantling of nuclear submarines at Rosyth and the testing of depleted uranium shells at Dundrennan; furthermore calls on Her Majesty's Government to honour its international obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty,"
In 1996, the International Court of Justice advised that
"the threat or use of nuclear weapons would generally be contrary to the rules of international law".
In other words, it would be contrary to the Geneva convention, the declaration of St Petersburg and the Hague convention. Trident was useless in the Falklands fiasco, in Bosnia and in our attack on Iraq. Indeed, the high cost of Trident has damaged our conventional capabilities. It does not provide security; it simply gives terrorists a target.
Remember the hundreds of thousands of pounds-worth of damage that was caused by three elderly ladies with a pair of bolt cutters a few years ago. How safe would Coulport be against a well-equipped terrorist? Nuclear convoys that supply Trident suffer accidents in most years and are vulnerable to terrorist attack. There were five accidents on the Firth of Clyde alone in the years between 1973 and 1987. That risk is not worth continuing with.
The United Nations has ruled that the use of depleted uranium coated weapons breaches the Geneva convention and the genocide convention. Two thousand tonnes of depleted uranium were dropped on Iraq in the recent attacks; that is 2,000 tonnes of radioactive dust. However, there are not just moral and legal imperatives against using depleted uranium. The MOD has fired more than 6,000 DU rounds into the Solway firth. We are told that that is safe, but this week, phosphorous shells were found washed up on the beaches of the Solway. The shells are almost certainly from the arms dumps in the Solway or Beaufort's Dyke where, we were told by the MOD 50 years ago, they would lie safely for the rest of time. Children play on those beaches, which are some of the best sandy beaches in Scotland. We must stop viewing the sea as a military dump. The weapons that were washed up on the beaches this week are proof positive that the haphazard firing of depleted uranium shells into the sea is not safe.
Article VI of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, which has been mentioned before, imposes on us an obligation to take
"effective measures relating to cessation of the nuclear arms race at an early date and to nuclear disarmament".
We need urgently to give the world a lead. Under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, the non-nuclear powers promise not to obtain nuclear weapons as long as the nuclear powers take steps to disarm. India, Pakistan and Israel have refused to sign because they see no evidence of the nuclear powers disarming. Two years ago, North Korea withdrew from the NPT for the same reason. How can we argue with those countries that they should stay non-nuclear when we are taking no steps to disarm and, indeed, are considering a new generation of weapons? As we have heard, the Government has announced that it is doing that and it will make a decision in the next two or three years.
The treaty is floundering. We need urgent action from the Westminster Government and the Executive to help to ensure that the ratification meeting in May is a success. Trident has not persuaded one single country to reduce its nuclear arsenal. Scotland should take the lead in this—we must do it for economic reasons and we should do it for our safety and for moral reasons. Most of all, we should take a lead for the sake of the entire world.
I move amendment S2M-2640.3, to insert after "£20 billion"
"; notes that communities and the environment across Scotland are endangered by nuclear convoys, by the dismantling of nuclear submarines at Rosyth and the testing of depleted uranium shells at Dundrennan; furthermore calls on Her Majesty's Government to honour its international obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty,"
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Murray Tosh):
Con
The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-2640, in the name of Roseanna Cunningham, on nuclear weapons.
Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):
SNP
We should be clear that this debate is about Britain's very own weapons of mass destruction, which are paid for by you and me, Presiding Officer, and indeed ...
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
I take Roseanna Cunningham back to what she said about North Korea and ask her one simple question: does she believe in the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation o...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I believe that no country should have nuclear weapons and that those that do should be setting an example to ensure that others do not decide to take that ro...
Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
The member says that she wants to keep the Scottish regiments and yet at the same time she wants to disband the British Army. How can she square that?
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
Like most modern west European states, an independent Scotland would have its own defence forces—we have never said any different—which would include the con...
Scott Barrie (Dunfermline West) (Lab):
Lab
There are few people—none in the chamber, I hope—who would support a proliferation of nuclear weapons, although the issue of nuclear deterrence remains contr...
Roseanna Cunningham:
SNP
I am astonished at Mr Barrie's comments. He does not want us to debate the reserved matter of UK weapons, yet he somehow thinks that we should debate matters...
Scott Barrie:
Lab
If Roseanna Cunningham and her colleagues listen carefully to what I am going to say about SNP logic regarding defence jobs in Fife, they will agree that tha...
Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP):
SNP
I thank Scott Barrie for his kind comment about my work for Moray. Does he believe that the Ministry of Defence should increase its defence procurement budge...
Scott Barrie:
Lab
Defence procurement and defence jobs are the very issues on which I will concentrate the rest of my speech.On the subject of MOD spending, I turn to our navy...
Tricia Marwick (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP):
SNP
Will the member give way?
Scott Barrie:
Lab
No. I have taken enough interventions.As we knew then, and as we see from today's motion, the SNP does not believe in Trident. Even if we had won the campaig...
Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):
LD
I am grateful to the SNP for raising this issue for debate. However, it is a strange motion to put before the Scottish Parliament at this time. As Scots and ...
Richard Lochhead (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Robert Brown will be aware that the Secretary of State for Defence said recently that after the UK elections, a decision will be taken on a successor to Trid...
Robert Brown:
LD
I will deal with that question in a moment because I was going to move on to that subject. Up to 40 countries across the globe have the capacity to manufactu...
Mr Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green):
Green
Does the member acknowledge that the UK Government has not delivered on the non-proliferation treaty and that that is why rogue states such as Korea want to ...
Robert Brown:
LD
That is a bizarre argument, which seems to be saying that because other states have not signed up or agreed to the non-proliferation treaty, we should get ri...
Chris Ballance (South of Scotland) (Green):
Green
There are two groups in this Parliament. There is the Lib-Lab-Con party, which is in favour of Trident, and there is everyone else, who represent the 85 per ...
Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
Once again, the SNP has chosen not to use its time to debate health, housing, council tax, pensions, the deprivation in parts of Scotland's cities or the dif...
Richard Lochhead:
SNP
The member attacks the SNP for choosing a reserved issue for debate. If his party does not believe in debating reserved issues, why did it choose to debate n...
Mr McGrigor:
Con
Last week we debated education, which is slightly more relevant to Scotland.The SNP has admitted that Scotland would have to withdraw from NATO. Imagine the ...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
Will the member take an intervention?
Mr McGrigor:
Con
No.If the SNP got its way, there would be no British Army, no Royal Navy and no Royal Air Force. The withdrawal of Trident is part of a greater SNP policy th...
Richard Lochhead (North East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
For most of members' lifetimes, ever since the first nuclear bombs were dropped nearly 60 years ago at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the nuclear cloud has been han...
Robert Brown:
LD
I am interested in the process that the SNP suggests. It is proposed that we get rid of the American, British and, presumably, the French nuclear deterrents....
Richard Lochhead:
SNP
We in Scotland cannot call on other countries to get rid of their nuclear weapons when we have one of the world's deadliest arsenals on our doorstep. When I ...
Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab):
Lab
This is slightly reminiscent of groundhog day—another SNP debate, another reserved issue. The people of Scotland will soon begin to wonder whether there is a...
Mr Ruskell:
Green
Will the member give way?
Jackie Baillie:
Lab
No.Specifically, I want to talk about an EKOS Consulting report that was commissioned a few years ago. The report showed that 7,000 people are employed at th...