Chamber
Plenary, 13 Mar 2003
13 Mar 2003 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
International Situation
The next few days will be vital to the future of Britain and how it decides to tackle Iraq. The Prime Minister will have to decide whether Britain's interest should come before the interests of the United Nations, China and Russia. This war is not about the diplomatic hoops that we might or might not have to jump through. It is not about giving a dictator another week, month or 17 or 24 days. It is not about oil conspiracies or anti-Palestinian plots. It is about 17 million people who live under a vicious regime that is comparable to Adolf Hitler's. It is about Britain's interest and the interests of peace and security in the middle east.
The SNP and the Liberal Democrats only want to go down the United Nations route in countering the threat. However, we should consider which countries we would have to go to, cap in hand, to get agreement in the UN Security Council. A recent Amnesty International report stated that hundreds of civilians have been killed, beaten and raped by Government forces in Guinea. The same Amnesty International report stated that human rights abuses recorded in Chechnya, in the Russian Federation, include arbitrary detention, torture and the disappearance of hundreds of people. In Angola, hundreds of unarmed civilians have been indiscriminately and deliberately killed by Government forces. Those countries are all represented on the UN Security Council. Are we saying that we are relying on their support, and that those countries will be in a position to judge right from wrong? I do not think so. Furthermore, despite France's opposition to the war, if any country epitomises unilateral foreign policy, it is France.
The SNP and the Liberal Democrats only want to go down the United Nations route in countering the threat. However, we should consider which countries we would have to go to, cap in hand, to get agreement in the UN Security Council. A recent Amnesty International report stated that hundreds of civilians have been killed, beaten and raped by Government forces in Guinea. The same Amnesty International report stated that human rights abuses recorded in Chechnya, in the Russian Federation, include arbitrary detention, torture and the disappearance of hundreds of people. In Angola, hundreds of unarmed civilians have been indiscriminately and deliberately killed by Government forces. Those countries are all represented on the UN Security Council. Are we saying that we are relying on their support, and that those countries will be in a position to judge right from wrong? I do not think so. Furthermore, despite France's opposition to the war, if any country epitomises unilateral foreign policy, it is France.
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Sir David Steel):
NPA
Good morning. Our first item of business is a debate on motion S1M-4012, in the name of John Swinney, on the current international situation.I must tell the ...
Mr John Swinney (North Tayside) (SNP):
SNP
Two months ago, the Scottish National Party led a debate in this, our national Parliament. That day we set out our "deep and serious concern" that the United...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab):
Lab
Does Mr Swinney accept that there are serious people on both sides of the argument and that people in Scotland do not speak with a unanimous voice on the iss...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I could not agree more with Johann Lamont. That is why we are having a three-hour debate in my party's parliamentary time, which will give those of every sha...
Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab):
Lab
On the basis of Mr Swinney's argument today, does he maintain that the SNP was right to oppose the ending of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo in 1999?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
In the interests of having a quality public debate about a war that the people of this country will face in the ensuing few days, we should concentrate on th...
Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
I am obliged to Mr Swinney for giving way. He rightly puts much emphasis on international law. However, does he accept that for every statement on internatio...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
If Murdo Fraser will bear with me, I will address that point directly.The United Nations Security Council resolution 1441, which was adopted on 8 November, i...
Members:
Hear, hear.
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I am glad to hear that the Liberal Democrats agree with that point. Nowhere in resolution 1441 is there a specific authorisation of force. The resolution cal...
The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):
Lab
Will Mr Swinney acknowledge that Mr Robert Black has been seriously wrong in the past on issues of concern to this country, including the Lockerbie disaster,...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
His running down of distinguished Scottish academics is not exactly a tribute to the First Minister's stance.
The First Minister:
Lab
It was wrong to run down Scots law when that law worked in the international interest and in the court in the Netherlands. Mr Black was wrong then and could ...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
If that is what the First Minister is reduced to, it says everything about what he has to contribute to the debate.Professor Black has further argued that th...
Johann Lamont:
Lab
Does the member therefore agree that the concept of an unreasonable veto exists and does he accept that those of us who are concerned about the Palestinian p...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I ask Johann Lamont merely to go and explain that to the Palestinian people, whose aspirations have been thwarted by the vetoes that I mentioned.Mr Blair sho...
Mr Keith Raffan (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD):
LD
Does Mr Swinney agree that the inspections are achieving containment and that Iraq is currently no threat to us or to its neighbours?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
That is a fair point.
Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):
Con
Does the member believe that Iraq would have made the recent concessions if there had not been the pressure of having troops on its borders?
Mr Swinney:
SNP
The concessions have been brought about by the pressure of the international community to ensure that Iraq complies with resolutions that have been passed by...
The Presiding Officer:
NPA
I thank Mr Swinney for taking less than the allotted time, despite taking interventions.
Mr Jack McConnell (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab):
Lab
In October 1977, I went on my first demonstration. We were protesting against apartheid and demanding the end of an evil regime. Britain was on the right sid...
Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow) (SSP):
SSP
I am glad that the minister protested against apartheid in 1977. Whose side is he on now, however? Is he on the side of Nelson Mandela, who is against this w...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
I am on the side of the people of Iraq. I remind Mr Sheridan that, for decades—well over a century—socialists have supported those who are being persecuted a...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
I hear what the First Minister says about the UK Government's attitude to a second resolution in the UN. Will the First Minister support military action if t...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
I have three things to say in answer to that question. First, it would be wrong, in this country and elsewhere, to comment on hypothetical situations when th...
Andrew Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
Nonsense.
Mr McConnell:
Lab
That day, Andrew Wilson said that Alex Salmond was right to describe that action as "unpardonable folly". However, he was not right; he was wrong. That examp...
Mr Swinney:
SNP
The First Minister said that he would not comment on hypothetical situations, but then went on to comment on actions that the French Government might take. T...
Mr McConnell:
Lab
I will address that point. The amendment that I will move makes the point that action should be authorised by the United Nations.Difficult decisions must be ...