Chamber
Plenary, 20 Sep 2001
20 Sep 2001 · S1 · Plenary
Item of business
Patient Care
If Shona Robison had read Audit Scotland's study, she would have seen that it was predominantly about control teams. The Executive has rightly introduced infection control and staff to make sure that the problems in that area are put right. It is not about numbers of people. Shona Robison claimed that 500 people are losing their jobs because of the opening of the new Edinburgh royal infirmary. There is something called efficiency—sometimes it works better.
I turn now to the points that were made by Richard Simpson—the pragmatist in an ideological party. He talked about publishing waiting times for health boards and commissioning from one board to another. That sounds a bit like league tables and a form of internal market to me.
I agree with Des McNulty that there were problems with fundholding and that there was fragmentation, but Labour did not have to throw the baby out with the bath water, something that I have heard previously from the Labour benches in relation to the Conservatives. When fundholding was introduced—when 25 per cent of the United Kingdom was covered by fundholding—£65 million was saved by GPs. GPs were allowed to reinvest that money in their practices for treatment on the front line; it was not skimmed off for tax cuts. There were a many very good things about fundholding, and we will not apologise for that.
George Lyon talked about acceptable taxation. We do not want to put in a penny this year, two pennies next year and so on. Where would the Liberal Democrats stop? Drug inflation is running at 10 per cent a year. Do the Liberal Democrats intend to keep raising the rate of income tax by 1p in the pound? To give it its due, the Labour party has matched the Liberal Democrats' spending commitments and doubled them, without raising taxes by the 1p that the Liberal Democrats continually boast about. We do not want an open-ended commitment. We want to tackle the problems of the NHS for the future. We want to give the NHS a future. To do that, we must start a debate on rationing and on ideology—on what is best done by the private sector and what is best done by the public sector.
Dorothy-Grace Elder talked about sending people abroad. We should remember that in the SNP's Scotland, Carlisle and Newcastle are abroad. As for her reference to the "Kama Sutra", on policy the SNP has had more positions than the "Kama Sutra". Funnily enough, I noticed that the SNP spokesman on defence was present in the chamber this morning. He was obviously trying to avoid the debate on NATO that is taking place in Dundee. However, we do not want to talk about that.
The Scottish Conservatives can live with the compliment that many of the hospital building programmes that have been commissioned were started by us. We can live with the compliment that PFI is an acceptable way of funding some projects, although not all projects. However, we will not stand by while patient care is put to one side for ideological reasons. We want to build an NHS for the future. We will be brave enough to discuss the future funding of the NHS. We will be brave enough to discuss rationing and what we can and cannot do. I urge members to support the Conservative motion.
I turn now to the points that were made by Richard Simpson—the pragmatist in an ideological party. He talked about publishing waiting times for health boards and commissioning from one board to another. That sounds a bit like league tables and a form of internal market to me.
I agree with Des McNulty that there were problems with fundholding and that there was fragmentation, but Labour did not have to throw the baby out with the bath water, something that I have heard previously from the Labour benches in relation to the Conservatives. When fundholding was introduced—when 25 per cent of the United Kingdom was covered by fundholding—£65 million was saved by GPs. GPs were allowed to reinvest that money in their practices for treatment on the front line; it was not skimmed off for tax cuts. There were a many very good things about fundholding, and we will not apologise for that.
George Lyon talked about acceptable taxation. We do not want to put in a penny this year, two pennies next year and so on. Where would the Liberal Democrats stop? Drug inflation is running at 10 per cent a year. Do the Liberal Democrats intend to keep raising the rate of income tax by 1p in the pound? To give it its due, the Labour party has matched the Liberal Democrats' spending commitments and doubled them, without raising taxes by the 1p that the Liberal Democrats continually boast about. We do not want an open-ended commitment. We want to tackle the problems of the NHS for the future. We want to give the NHS a future. To do that, we must start a debate on rationing and on ideology—on what is best done by the private sector and what is best done by the public sector.
Dorothy-Grace Elder talked about sending people abroad. We should remember that in the SNP's Scotland, Carlisle and Newcastle are abroad. As for her reference to the "Kama Sutra", on policy the SNP has had more positions than the "Kama Sutra". Funnily enough, I noticed that the SNP spokesman on defence was present in the chamber this morning. He was obviously trying to avoid the debate on NATO that is taking place in Dundee. However, we do not want to talk about that.
The Scottish Conservatives can live with the compliment that many of the hospital building programmes that have been commissioned were started by us. We can live with the compliment that PFI is an acceptable way of funding some projects, although not all projects. However, we will not stand by while patient care is put to one side for ideological reasons. We want to build an NHS for the future. We will be brave enough to discuss the future funding of the NHS. We will be brave enough to discuss rationing and what we can and cannot do. I urge members to support the Conservative motion.
In the same item of business
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Patricia Ferguson):
Lab
The next item of business is a debate on Conservative motion S1M-2207, in the name of David McLetchie, on improving patient care, and on two amendments to th...
David McLetchie (Lothians) (Con):
Con
Let me begin with a paradox. Opinion surveys show increasing dissatisfaction with the performance of the health care system in the United Kingdom, compared w...
Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab):
Lab
Mr McLetchie's speech is very interesting and quite well balanced. However, in the interests of balance, will he talk about the vast increase in the number o...
David McLetchie:
Con
I try to be honest about those matters. Problems with nurse recruitment and nurse numbers have not diminished; in fact, I think that they have become rather ...
The Minister for Health and Community Care (Susan Deacon):
Lab
I welcome this morning's debate and I have listened with interest to David McLetchie's opening remarks. I welcome his acknowledgement of the complexity and s...
Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):
Con
The minister mentioned improved accountability. What does she say to those members of the public in Perthshire who feel that there has been no accountability...
Susan Deacon:
Lab
I believe that accountability has improved in that area as in others. There is still some way to go, which is why we continue to make changes and improvement...
Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
There is little that I disagree with in the minister's speech so far, but will she clarify how far she is prepared to see private finance being used in the n...
Susan Deacon:
Lab
I am glad that Shona Robison welcomes what I have said. Of course, the difference between our policies and the SNP's policies is that we have some, and we ha...
David McLetchie:
Con
Will the minister give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
The minister is winding up.
Susan Deacon:
Lab
There has always been, and there will continue to be, a role for partnerships between the NHS and various parts of the private sector, where that can add val...
Shona Robison (North-East Scotland) (SNP):
SNP
I agreed with one thing in David McLetchie's speech, which was that not everything started to go wrong in the health service from 1997 onward, which is why t...
Ben Wallace (North-East Scotland) (Con):
Con
Will Shona Robison take an intervention?
Shona Robison:
SNP
No thank you.It reminds people of the madness of the internal market, which David McLetchie seems to want to re-establish, unless I misunderstood, and the pr...
Ben Wallace:
Con
I wonder whether Shona Robison agrees with her principal spokesman, Nicola Sturgeon, who in an interview with The Economist on 14 July mentioned that perhaps...
Shona Robison:
SNP
Ben Wallace has misunderstood the concept of the privatisation of the health service, which his party wants to happen.I find myself in the somewhat strange p...
Susan Deacon:
Lab
I wonder whether the SNP's deputy health spokesperson has ever visited Hairmyres hospital. Will she tell us whether she has ever spoken to the staff there or...
Shona Robison:
SNP
I will do better than that; I will quote one hospital worker who said:"Morale couldn't be any lower. We are no longer working as a team because half the staf...
Iain Smith (North-East Fife) (LD):
LD
Will the member give way?
Shona Robison:
SNP
No. I am just winding up.The Scottish National Party would spend Scotland's money more wisely. An SNP administration would never allow £718 million—money tha...
Mrs Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):
LD
I found myself in the unusual position of welcoming much of what David McLetchie said, until he got further into his contribution and then, unfortunately, it...
Mr Monteith:
Con
Will the member give way?
Mrs Smith:
LD
Yes.
Mr Monteith:
Con
Would the member accept that the introduction of competitive tendering exposed many of the problems in catering and cleaning in the health service? Those com...
Mrs Smith:
LD
I accept that anecdotal evidence and other evidence such as the report that Andrew Walker produced, which Shona Robison mentioned and which was published a c...
Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands) (Con):
Con
Will the member give way?
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
No interventions. Margaret Smith is winding up.
Mrs Smith:
LD
The Liberal Democrats are committed in the Executive to record investment across the board, as the minister said. Everyone will receive a 5.5 per cent increa...
The Deputy Presiding Officer:
Lab
We now move to the open part of the debate. Several members wish to speak. In the time that is available, I will be unable to call all those members. I ask t...