Chamber
Meeting of the Parliament 25 January 2012
25 Jan 2012 · S4 · Meeting of the Parliament
Item of business
Referendum Consultation
We have set out the question in the consultation paper so that people who want to do so can provide their views on the question and other aspects of the referendum, through the consultation process. The question is designed to comply with the Electoral Commission’s guidelines, which are that referendum questions should present the options clearly, simply and with neutrality. The question that we have published today aims to do all three and will of course be subject to testing, using a sample of voters.
The regulation of the referendum will be an essential element in ensuring its fairness. The regulator must be a body that has the professionalism to ensure that the vote is above reproach. It is no less important that the regulator be accountable to this Parliament for its work. As members know, the Government has had concerns about the best way to ensure that accountability. Last year, however, the Scottish Parliament passed legislation to give the Electoral Commission a role in regulating local elections in Scotland. The commission will report to this Parliament on how it carries out that role. We therefore have the opportunity to build on that and on the commission’s experience of supervising two referendums in 2011, by appointing the Electoral Commission to regulate the referendum.
The consultation document that we published this afternoon seeks views on the roles that we propose for the commission and for the electoral management board for Scotland. The electoral management board, which was developed by the Scottish Government with electoral professionals, was established in response to a recommendation of the Gould report into the conduct of the 2007 Scottish parliamentary elections. Our proposal today is that that board should be responsible for the management of the referendum.
One area on which we agree with the United Kingdom Government is the geographical basis of the franchise. The people who live and work in Scotland are best placed to decide its future. Our proposal is therefore that eligibility to vote in the referendum should reflect the internationally accepted principle that the franchise for constitutional referendums be determined by residency. That is the approach for Scottish Parliament elections and it was the approach for the 1997 referendum on devolution.
The one area where we propose to extend the franchise relates to young people. The Government and, I should say, leading figures in the Opposition have been consistent in their commitment to extending the franchise in all elections to 16 and 17-year-olds. It is right that our young people should have the chance to play their part in decisions about their community and country. Where we have been able to include 16 and 17-year-olds in elections that have been the responsibility of this Parliament, we have done so. If a 16-year-old in Scotland can register to join the Army, get married and pay taxes, surely he or she should be able to have a say in this country’s constitutional future? In our consultation, we are therefore seeking views on our proposal to extend the right to vote in the referendum to 16 and 17-year-olds who are eligible to be included on the electoral register.
Just as we do not intend to artificially restrict the franchise, we should not restrict the scope of options that might command wide support in Scotland. The United Kingdom Government argues that there should be no question in the referendum about full or further devolution within the United Kingdom and that the choice should be between full independence or the status quo. The Scottish Government’s position is for independence. Therefore, that option will appear on any ballot paper in a straightforward manner—we have set out our proposal for the question in the consultation document, as I said. However, this is a consultation with the community of the realm of Scotland and it is imperative that the referendum is seen to be fair, democratic and inclusive. If there is an alternative of maximum devolution that would command wide support in Scotland, it is only fair and democratic that that option should be among the choices that are open to the people of Scotland. We will not, as the UK Government seems to want, eliminate that choice simply because it might be popular.
We will hold the referendum in the autumn of 2014. The United Kingdom Government argues that, because the referendum is so important, we should rush ahead with it. We are taking a rather more rational and sensible approach. The consultation document sets out in the clearest form the steps that will need to be taken to prepare for the referendum. It shows that the autumn of 2014 is the soonest that the referendum can be held in a way that meets the high standard that the people of this country have the right to expect.
We share with the United Kingdom Government a wish that the referendum should be decided by the views of the electorate on the future of their country and not on the technical disputes about parliamentary competence. We have set out in the past how the Scottish Parliament could hold a referendum that we are satisfied would be within its present competence. To ensure that the referendum is, in effect, beyond legal challenge, we are willing to work with the UK Government. I look forward to my discussions with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Prime Minister in the coming days and weeks. However, let me be clear: the terms of the referendum are for the Scottish Parliament and the people of Scotland to decide. That is the mandate that was given to the Scottish Parliament by the people, and responsibility for carrying through the will of the electorate now rests with the Parliament.
I am sure that it is not lost on members—it certainly could not be after time for reflection—that today is the birthday of Robert Burns, our national poet. It is a remarkable testament to the power of Robert Burns that, on the 253rd anniversary of his birth, we still toast the poet and the man in his many different guises and continue to explore his work and find inspiration in his words. For today’s purposes, I want to invoke Burns the democrat, because the choices that Scotland faces are, fundamentally, matters of democracy.
Our country faces a new constitutional future and we must take the best path for our people. I am told that there are members of the House of Lords who believe that it is in their province to set boundaries on what Scotland can and cannot do. Perhaps they should be reminded that Burns’s great hymn to equality has been heard in this Parliament before, when Sheena Wellington sang “A Man’s a Man for a’ That” at our first opening in 1999.
“Ye see yon birkie ca’d, a lord,
Wha struts, and stares, and a’ that,
Though hundreds worship at his word,
He’s but a coof for a’ that.
For a’ that, and a’ that,
His ribband, star and a’ that,
The man of independent mind,
He looks and laughs at a’ that.”
From ploughman poet to literary legend, Burns’s journey was remarkable. Three centuries on from the 1707 union, the people of Scotland elected a majority pro-independence Government—the Government that I am proud to lead—to revisit that decision. This time, the decision will be made democratically, by the people of Scotland.
During the 2011 election campaign, I said that Scotland was on a journey—there is continuity, and a sense of purpose. As one of my best friends in life and this Parliament’s much-missed colleague Bashir Ahmad once said, it is not where you come from that matters, but where we are going together. It is my belief and this Government’s belief that Scotland is going forward together towards a more prosperous and fairer society and that today is the latest significant step along that path.
To quote the words of James Robertson, a contemporary poet of whom Burns would undoubtedly have approved:
“The road that was blocked has no end
The unknown journey is known
The heart that is hurt will mend
The bird that was trapped has flown.”
The bird has flown and cannot be returned to its cage. I believe that this journey represents the aspirations and ambitions of the people of Scotland.
Today, as we pass another milestone, we reach out to the other parties across this Parliament in a spirit of consensus, urging them to contribute to this consultation on the referendum, for which the people voted in such large numbers. I urge them, in expressing their views, not to listen to voices from elsewhere. Why not, instead, take the lead from the people of Scotland?
In the election, we set out our immediate focus on addressing the pressing economic challenges and strengthening Scotland’s recovery. Today’s decline in the UK gross domestic product figures underlines the urgency of that objective. Therefore, our immediate constitutional priority is to improve the Scotland Bill to give it the job-creating powers that this country desperately needs.
Those vital tasks underpin the timescale for the referendum, and we will continue to use all the powers currently within the control of this Parliament to boost jobs, growth and recovery. However, there can be no doubt that this Parliament needs full economic powers so that we can do more for Scotland.
The next two and a half years promise to be among the most exciting in Scotland’s modern history. At the end of that period, in the autumn of 2014, people the length and breadth of our country will have their say in Scotland’s independence referendum. Independence, in essence, is based on a simple idea: the people who care most about Scotland—that is, the people who live, work and bring up their families in Scotland—should be the ones taking the decisions about our nation’s future. No one else is going to do a better job of making Scotland a success. No one else has the same stake in our future. The people of Scotland should be in charge.
Independence will give us the opportunity to make different decisions and to implement policies designed for Scotland’s needs. That means that we will be able to make Scotland the country that we all know it can be: a wealthier and fairer nation; and a country that speaks with its own voice, stands taller in the world and takes responsibility for its own future. Independence is about Scotland rejoining the family of nations in our own right. We can be both independent and interdependent: we can stand on our own two feet while working closely with other nations, our friends and our neighbours.
When the United Nations was formed, there were just over 50 independent countries in the world. Today, that figure has risen to almost 200. Of the 10 countries that joined the European Union in 2004, a majority had become independent since 1990, and Scotland is bigger than six of them. All of those nations now have a seat at Europe’s top table—a right that Scotland should enjoy, too.
Scotland’s home rule journey is clearly part of a bigger international picture. After all, independence is what we seek as individuals, whether by buying our first car or our first home. It is the natural state for people and nations around the world. Not being independent is the exception. This Parliament in Edinburgh already takes a range of key decisions when it comes to running our schools, hospitals, police and much else besides. Independence will mean that we are also responsible for raising our own money.
Scotland is a land of unlimited potential: its culture, history and reputation for innovation are renowned throughout the world; our universities are world class; and our energy resources are unrivalled in Europe. Indeed, on current figures, we would have the sixth-highest gross domestic product per capita among Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries.
With independence, we can have a new social union with the other nations of these islands. We will continue to share Her Majesty the Queen as head of state. However, we will not have our young servicemen and women dragged into illegal wars like the one in Iraq, and we will not have nuclear weapons based on Scottish soil. [Applause.]
The regulation of the referendum will be an essential element in ensuring its fairness. The regulator must be a body that has the professionalism to ensure that the vote is above reproach. It is no less important that the regulator be accountable to this Parliament for its work. As members know, the Government has had concerns about the best way to ensure that accountability. Last year, however, the Scottish Parliament passed legislation to give the Electoral Commission a role in regulating local elections in Scotland. The commission will report to this Parliament on how it carries out that role. We therefore have the opportunity to build on that and on the commission’s experience of supervising two referendums in 2011, by appointing the Electoral Commission to regulate the referendum.
The consultation document that we published this afternoon seeks views on the roles that we propose for the commission and for the electoral management board for Scotland. The electoral management board, which was developed by the Scottish Government with electoral professionals, was established in response to a recommendation of the Gould report into the conduct of the 2007 Scottish parliamentary elections. Our proposal today is that that board should be responsible for the management of the referendum.
One area on which we agree with the United Kingdom Government is the geographical basis of the franchise. The people who live and work in Scotland are best placed to decide its future. Our proposal is therefore that eligibility to vote in the referendum should reflect the internationally accepted principle that the franchise for constitutional referendums be determined by residency. That is the approach for Scottish Parliament elections and it was the approach for the 1997 referendum on devolution.
The one area where we propose to extend the franchise relates to young people. The Government and, I should say, leading figures in the Opposition have been consistent in their commitment to extending the franchise in all elections to 16 and 17-year-olds. It is right that our young people should have the chance to play their part in decisions about their community and country. Where we have been able to include 16 and 17-year-olds in elections that have been the responsibility of this Parliament, we have done so. If a 16-year-old in Scotland can register to join the Army, get married and pay taxes, surely he or she should be able to have a say in this country’s constitutional future? In our consultation, we are therefore seeking views on our proposal to extend the right to vote in the referendum to 16 and 17-year-olds who are eligible to be included on the electoral register.
Just as we do not intend to artificially restrict the franchise, we should not restrict the scope of options that might command wide support in Scotland. The United Kingdom Government argues that there should be no question in the referendum about full or further devolution within the United Kingdom and that the choice should be between full independence or the status quo. The Scottish Government’s position is for independence. Therefore, that option will appear on any ballot paper in a straightforward manner—we have set out our proposal for the question in the consultation document, as I said. However, this is a consultation with the community of the realm of Scotland and it is imperative that the referendum is seen to be fair, democratic and inclusive. If there is an alternative of maximum devolution that would command wide support in Scotland, it is only fair and democratic that that option should be among the choices that are open to the people of Scotland. We will not, as the UK Government seems to want, eliminate that choice simply because it might be popular.
We will hold the referendum in the autumn of 2014. The United Kingdom Government argues that, because the referendum is so important, we should rush ahead with it. We are taking a rather more rational and sensible approach. The consultation document sets out in the clearest form the steps that will need to be taken to prepare for the referendum. It shows that the autumn of 2014 is the soonest that the referendum can be held in a way that meets the high standard that the people of this country have the right to expect.
We share with the United Kingdom Government a wish that the referendum should be decided by the views of the electorate on the future of their country and not on the technical disputes about parliamentary competence. We have set out in the past how the Scottish Parliament could hold a referendum that we are satisfied would be within its present competence. To ensure that the referendum is, in effect, beyond legal challenge, we are willing to work with the UK Government. I look forward to my discussions with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Prime Minister in the coming days and weeks. However, let me be clear: the terms of the referendum are for the Scottish Parliament and the people of Scotland to decide. That is the mandate that was given to the Scottish Parliament by the people, and responsibility for carrying through the will of the electorate now rests with the Parliament.
I am sure that it is not lost on members—it certainly could not be after time for reflection—that today is the birthday of Robert Burns, our national poet. It is a remarkable testament to the power of Robert Burns that, on the 253rd anniversary of his birth, we still toast the poet and the man in his many different guises and continue to explore his work and find inspiration in his words. For today’s purposes, I want to invoke Burns the democrat, because the choices that Scotland faces are, fundamentally, matters of democracy.
Our country faces a new constitutional future and we must take the best path for our people. I am told that there are members of the House of Lords who believe that it is in their province to set boundaries on what Scotland can and cannot do. Perhaps they should be reminded that Burns’s great hymn to equality has been heard in this Parliament before, when Sheena Wellington sang “A Man’s a Man for a’ That” at our first opening in 1999.
“Ye see yon birkie ca’d, a lord,
Wha struts, and stares, and a’ that,
Though hundreds worship at his word,
He’s but a coof for a’ that.
For a’ that, and a’ that,
His ribband, star and a’ that,
The man of independent mind,
He looks and laughs at a’ that.”
From ploughman poet to literary legend, Burns’s journey was remarkable. Three centuries on from the 1707 union, the people of Scotland elected a majority pro-independence Government—the Government that I am proud to lead—to revisit that decision. This time, the decision will be made democratically, by the people of Scotland.
During the 2011 election campaign, I said that Scotland was on a journey—there is continuity, and a sense of purpose. As one of my best friends in life and this Parliament’s much-missed colleague Bashir Ahmad once said, it is not where you come from that matters, but where we are going together. It is my belief and this Government’s belief that Scotland is going forward together towards a more prosperous and fairer society and that today is the latest significant step along that path.
To quote the words of James Robertson, a contemporary poet of whom Burns would undoubtedly have approved:
“The road that was blocked has no end
The unknown journey is known
The heart that is hurt will mend
The bird that was trapped has flown.”
The bird has flown and cannot be returned to its cage. I believe that this journey represents the aspirations and ambitions of the people of Scotland.
Today, as we pass another milestone, we reach out to the other parties across this Parliament in a spirit of consensus, urging them to contribute to this consultation on the referendum, for which the people voted in such large numbers. I urge them, in expressing their views, not to listen to voices from elsewhere. Why not, instead, take the lead from the people of Scotland?
In the election, we set out our immediate focus on addressing the pressing economic challenges and strengthening Scotland’s recovery. Today’s decline in the UK gross domestic product figures underlines the urgency of that objective. Therefore, our immediate constitutional priority is to improve the Scotland Bill to give it the job-creating powers that this country desperately needs.
Those vital tasks underpin the timescale for the referendum, and we will continue to use all the powers currently within the control of this Parliament to boost jobs, growth and recovery. However, there can be no doubt that this Parliament needs full economic powers so that we can do more for Scotland.
The next two and a half years promise to be among the most exciting in Scotland’s modern history. At the end of that period, in the autumn of 2014, people the length and breadth of our country will have their say in Scotland’s independence referendum. Independence, in essence, is based on a simple idea: the people who care most about Scotland—that is, the people who live, work and bring up their families in Scotland—should be the ones taking the decisions about our nation’s future. No one else is going to do a better job of making Scotland a success. No one else has the same stake in our future. The people of Scotland should be in charge.
Independence will give us the opportunity to make different decisions and to implement policies designed for Scotland’s needs. That means that we will be able to make Scotland the country that we all know it can be: a wealthier and fairer nation; and a country that speaks with its own voice, stands taller in the world and takes responsibility for its own future. Independence is about Scotland rejoining the family of nations in our own right. We can be both independent and interdependent: we can stand on our own two feet while working closely with other nations, our friends and our neighbours.
When the United Nations was formed, there were just over 50 independent countries in the world. Today, that figure has risen to almost 200. Of the 10 countries that joined the European Union in 2004, a majority had become independent since 1990, and Scotland is bigger than six of them. All of those nations now have a seat at Europe’s top table—a right that Scotland should enjoy, too.
Scotland’s home rule journey is clearly part of a bigger international picture. After all, independence is what we seek as individuals, whether by buying our first car or our first home. It is the natural state for people and nations around the world. Not being independent is the exception. This Parliament in Edinburgh already takes a range of key decisions when it comes to running our schools, hospitals, police and much else besides. Independence will mean that we are also responsible for raising our own money.
Scotland is a land of unlimited potential: its culture, history and reputation for innovation are renowned throughout the world; our universities are world class; and our energy resources are unrivalled in Europe. Indeed, on current figures, we would have the sixth-highest gross domestic product per capita among Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries.
With independence, we can have a new social union with the other nations of these islands. We will continue to share Her Majesty the Queen as head of state. However, we will not have our young servicemen and women dragged into illegal wars like the one in Iraq, and we will not have nuclear weapons based on Scottish soil. [Applause.]
In the same item of business
The Presiding Officer (Tricia Marwick)
NPA
The next item of business is a statement by Alex Salmond on the referendum consultation. The First Minister will take questions at the end of his statement, ...
The First Minister (Alex Salmond)
SNP
Presiding Officer, the people who live in Scotland are the best people to make decisions about their own future. Of that there can be no doubt. In May last y...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
We have a great deal of questions to get through, so I would appreciate it if members would save any applause for the end of the statement and not interrupt ...
The First Minister
SNP
We have set out the question in the consultation paper so that people who want to do so can provide their views on the question and other aspects of the refe...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Order.
The First Minister
SNP
Independence will create a new, more modern relationship between the nations of these islands—a partnership of equals. I want Scotland to be independent not ...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Order. The First Minister will now take questions on the issues raised in his statement and in the consultation paper. I intend to allow around 40 minutes fo...
Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lab
As this is Burns day, I am tempted to reflect on my party piece at Burns suppers, when I do the reply to the toast to the lassies and call in aid Rabbie Burn...
The First Minister
SNP
To be clear, we have published “Your Scotland, Your Referendum”. That is the consultation document for all of Scotland. I will be delighted to hold talks wit...
Ruth Davidson (Glasgow) (Con)
Con
I thank the First Minister for early sight of his statement and for his referendum consultation, which by some counts is the fourth of its kind in his attemp...
The First Minister
SNP
Yes, in the statement that I just made I said that we will co-operate, and I have welcomed the offer of a section 30 order. However, the Conservative leader ...
Willie Rennie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
LD
I thank the First Minister for providing an advance copy of his statement. Today, we will see much pomp and ceremony up at the castle, but we will still have...
The First Minister
SNP
Given the fact that the Liberal leader does not want that option on the ballot paper, I am not certain how to answer the question. Sometimes I think that it ...
Christina McKelvie (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
SNP
A yes vote in the referendum that the First Minister has just set out would see Scotland take her place in the world as an independent nation. Can he confirm...
The First Minister
SNP
Yes, I can, and yes, it will be.
Paul Wheelhouse (South Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
Last night, the First Minister spoke in London on the relationship that an independent Scotland would have with the rest of the UK. I represent the Borders. ...
The First Minister
SNP
Yes, I can. The response to that argument seems to be rather more positive among our friends south of the border than it is among the Opposition parties in t...
Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Lab
I am pleased that the Government’s consultation document, which was published today, acknowledges that an independent Scotland would open formal negotiations...
The First Minister
SNP
I have referred before in the chamber, and I can, for Patricia Ferguson’s benefit, refer again, to a range of legal authorities who support the Scottish Gove...
Maureen Watt (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
SNP
The First Minister and I are both old enough—unfortunately—to remember the 1979 referendum, whose process was gerrymandered by the Westminster Parliament. In...
The Presiding Officer
NPA
Order. Please let us hear the member.
Maureen Watt
SNP
Does the First Minister agree that, if the coming referendum process is to have any legitimacy, it must be developed in Scotland rather than restricted by co...
The First Minister
SNP
I remember two things in particular about the 1979 referendum. I remember the 40 per cent rule that was introduced into the franchise. It was supported by th...
Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Lab
I point out that it was a Thatcher Government that the SNP ushered in.Section 1(3) of the draft bill sets out the date of the referendum as “insert date”. Wh...
The First Minister
SNP
Yes, I can do that. It will be held on the timetable that has been outlined. I suggest that Richard Baker reads it.I am genuinely interested to hear what Ric...
Stuart McMillan (West Scotland) (SNP)
SNP
The consultation proposes to give the right to vote to all those living in Scotland who are on the electoral roll. I am from England—I was born in Barrow in ...
The First Minister
SNP
The member makes the very important point that the people of Scotland are those who live in Scotland, who have chosen to make their home and livelihoods in S...
Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab)
Lab
As someone who has signed the votes at 16 pledge, I want to ask the First Minister about that aspect of the franchise. Will he clarify whether having votes a...
The First Minister
SNP
Not only is the process laid out in the document, which I suggest that the member reads, but the practice has already been carried forward in elections to he...
David McLetchie (Lothian) (Con)
Con
Does the First Minister’s Government intend to falsify the opinions of any other constitutional experts to justify a muddled, two-question, multi-option refe...